CJ44 - velocity question
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CJ44 - velocity question
I had been interested in purchasing a Circuit Judge in 44 mag. Most of the reviews I was reading seemed to give a mainly favorable opinion of it at least as far as reliability and accuracy go. But when searching a little deeper on it, the issue of the oversized forcing cone comes up. My question is just how much velocity is lost as a result of this? I searched hi and low and couldn't find any actual chronograph measurements comparing it to other other 44s using the same ammo.
Now a revolver style carbine can't be expected to hang with a lever gun as far as velocity goes with its standard cylinder gap alone. But if it could perform equal to say a 12" barrel handgun with its' 18.5" barrel I might still consider getting it. But much below that would be a deal breaker for me. Does anyone know something more on this issue? thanks
Now a revolver style carbine can't be expected to hang with a lever gun as far as velocity goes with its standard cylinder gap alone. But if it could perform equal to say a 12" barrel handgun with its' 18.5" barrel I might still consider getting it. But much below that would be a deal breaker for me. Does anyone know something more on this issue? thanks
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Re: CJ44 - velocity question
I can help with this a bit. You mentioned your concern with the over-sized forcing cone, but the greater concern is the amount of freebore cut into the barrel ahead of the forcing cone. There is nothing to stabilize a bullet for several inches, nothing touching it at all. It will swallow half of a 44 Mag cartridge, let alone the bullet. There is no doubt in my mind that this is designed to get the pressure off the firearm pronto but this is also a "hint" that maybe the design simply isn't a good idea to begin with.
Here are the specifics from what my" SJC44 vs. my R92. The load is the same, a RD TLC432-300-RF (gas checked, round flat nose) bullet pushed with 20.2-grain of Lil'Gun. The SJC44 saw 1455 FPS and out of my R92 with the 20" barrel, 1625 FPS. For 1.5" of barrel length, a 170 FPS loss is rather steep. Of course, it is more than the barrel length. What really drove me crazy was the lack of accuracy delivered by the SJC44. Right now, I'm looking at a dozen digital scored targets from my R92 and the average group size of a five shot string at 100-yards is 1.952" (1.864 MOA). I never could keep five shots on a target out at 100 yards with the SJC44 so all my 5-shot groups where at 50-yards. The average was 2.512". Because of the differences in yardages, 50 with the SJC vs. 100 with the R92, the apples to apples comparison is MOA. At 50 yards the SJC44 groups measure 4.798 MOA! Honestly, my Taurus M44C with a 2" barrel delivers a better MOA than that! The M44C with the same load delivers 1100 FPS.
I liked the concept of the Circuit Judge and spent a grand buying both the CJ4510 & SJC44. I've never turned two firearms back on to a resale rack as fast as I did that pair! I talked to a fellow in Customer Service in depth about the rifles and he flat out stated that was the design, over-sized forcing cone and freebore ahead of it, so there was nothing they could do to correct the issues. The dip into the Judges ended up costing me about $100 but I'm glad I got out when I did.
Finally, I did kill a hog with each but that was simply a matter of getting real close and the hog being real still. All this said, if Rossi would correct the issues and build it like they do a Rossi revolver, I would be on it real fast. The SJC44 at least and a CJ45 built to the quality of the Taurus 450, no interest in the 410 bore side of the CJ.
Good luck and welcome to the forum.
Here are the specifics from what my" SJC44 vs. my R92. The load is the same, a RD TLC432-300-RF (gas checked, round flat nose) bullet pushed with 20.2-grain of Lil'Gun. The SJC44 saw 1455 FPS and out of my R92 with the 20" barrel, 1625 FPS. For 1.5" of barrel length, a 170 FPS loss is rather steep. Of course, it is more than the barrel length. What really drove me crazy was the lack of accuracy delivered by the SJC44. Right now, I'm looking at a dozen digital scored targets from my R92 and the average group size of a five shot string at 100-yards is 1.952" (1.864 MOA). I never could keep five shots on a target out at 100 yards with the SJC44 so all my 5-shot groups where at 50-yards. The average was 2.512". Because of the differences in yardages, 50 with the SJC vs. 100 with the R92, the apples to apples comparison is MOA. At 50 yards the SJC44 groups measure 4.798 MOA! Honestly, my Taurus M44C with a 2" barrel delivers a better MOA than that! The M44C with the same load delivers 1100 FPS.
I liked the concept of the Circuit Judge and spent a grand buying both the CJ4510 & SJC44. I've never turned two firearms back on to a resale rack as fast as I did that pair! I talked to a fellow in Customer Service in depth about the rifles and he flat out stated that was the design, over-sized forcing cone and freebore ahead of it, so there was nothing they could do to correct the issues. The dip into the Judges ended up costing me about $100 but I'm glad I got out when I did.
Finally, I did kill a hog with each but that was simply a matter of getting real close and the hog being real still. All this said, if Rossi would correct the issues and build it like they do a Rossi revolver, I would be on it real fast. The SJC44 at least and a CJ45 built to the quality of the Taurus 450, no interest in the 410 bore side of the CJ.
Good luck and welcome to the forum.
Michael
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Re: CJ44 - velocity question
Thanks for the input, as that's the type of info I was looking for. I had actually thought the velocity loss would be greater, as the CJ22 loses a whooping 50% on 22mag loads and is actually beat out by a 6.5" barrel Heritage Rough Rider on certain loads in regards to velocity. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/22mag.html
I guess the heavier caliber reacts differently. I could live with a 10% velocity loss, as some is expected from the standard cylinder gap, but this just sounds like a poor and rushed design. I think I'll hold off on this one for now. I doubt it's likely Rossi is going to address these issues anytime soon, although it would be great if they did. Too bad, as this could have been made much better.,
I guess the heavier caliber reacts differently. I could live with a 10% velocity loss, as some is expected from the standard cylinder gap, but this just sounds like a poor and rushed design. I think I'll hold off on this one for now. I doubt it's likely Rossi is going to address these issues anytime soon, although it would be great if they did. Too bad, as this could have been made much better.,
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Re: CJ44 - velocity question
I would have to agree.jardine77 wrote:I doubt it's likely Rossi is going to address these issues anytime soon, although it would be great if they did. Too bad, as this could have been made much better.,
Michael
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Re: CJ44 - velocity question
As long as sales are good why would Rossi change a single thing?
If sales are good the CJs have hit their intended targets as far as Rossi is concerned.......OUR WALLETS!
Most shooters apparently aren't as discriminating as we are........if it goes bang and puts a hole in something in front of the muzzle they're happy campers.
Handled a couple of the CJs in store after they first came out and they looked pretty loose and sloppy.............never liked them from the getgo.
If sales are good the CJs have hit their intended targets as far as Rossi is concerned.......OUR WALLETS!
Most shooters apparently aren't as discriminating as we are........if it goes bang and puts a hole in something in front of the muzzle they're happy campers.
Handled a couple of the CJs in store after they first came out and they looked pretty loose and sloppy.............never liked them from the getgo.
LIFE MEMBER - NRA & GOA
Re: CJ44 - velocity question
I just bought a real 45 cal barrel blank and I,m getting my cj4510 re barreled with it, real cut rifiling and and proper sized forcing cone is in store for me. I'll let you all know how it goes!
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Re: CJ44 - velocity question
Now, if you could solve the additional 1" of freebore created by the cylinder length.
Michael
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Re: CJ44 - velocity question
If I woulda got mine primarily for bullets, I would a picked a 44 or something that shoots farther,,,,but I got mine for a 410, and for that it kicks butt, I took it out yesterday and did some range and pattern testing and make sure all is ready as the season is on, I find it to be the way to go for bunnies & stuff, and that would be no good but Ma got me this here 410 MEC reloader, works real nice.
Don't ask me to do anything where where I can't take Bible and Gun, I would leave Dog home, but reluctantly.
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Re: CJ44 - velocity question
As long as a fella hand loads, and never sold the lil carbine to ANYONE, he could cut the chamber to the length of the 460 S&W to get rid of some of that freebore and keep pressures down to levels that could be used in the CJ. A Frankenstein for sure, but it is anyway. DPRanch Dog wrote:Now, if you could solve the additional 1" of freebore created by the cylinder length.
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Re: CJ44 - velocity question
Interesting comments.
Of the two CJs I've looked over one of them ended up going straight back to the supplier since the stock was splintered to flinders.
I'd considered the 410 option but can't quite get there.
I'll probably stick to the .44 and .357 92s.
Of the two CJs I've looked over one of them ended up going straight back to the supplier since the stock was splintered to flinders.
I'd considered the 410 option but can't quite get there.
I'll probably stick to the .44 and .357 92s.