What did I do wrong? (Spring install/reassembly)

The Rossi Model R92, a lightweight carbine for Cowboy Action, hunting, or plinking! Includes Rossi manufactured Interarms, Navy Arms, and Puma trade names.
evi1joe
Posts: 10
Joined: 07 May 2021 02:02
Location: North Florida
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 1 time

What did I do wrong? (Spring install/reassembly)

Post by evi1joe »

I took my 38/357 Rossi 92 apart, put in the full set of springs from the Palo Verde kit (it was like 4-5 springs total).

I got it back together and realized that the lifter pin was reinstalled backwards when I switched that spring out (the lifter just flopped around and wouldn't feed rounds--they'd just go up, then back down).

TAKE TWO -- I had many issues:
1) After putting the bolt in, and the bolt pin, the lever wouldn't actuate the bolt without a LOT of pressure. I know it has to be punched in all the way, so I did. I also know the SCREW is too long, so I left it out (or very loose--screwing it in tight the first time is how I knew it was too long). Even with the pin in and screw loos, it still took a lot of pressure to work the bolt even though there was no hammer or trigger in the gun.

Oddly enough, this issue went away once the gun was fully put back together, and it's all VERY smooth and super easy to move the lever/bolt now.

2) MY MAJOR PROBLEM:
The gun SEEMS to feed and work fine, however, I noticed that if the gun is turned sideways, it won't feed--the bullet on the lifter will just roll or fall out the top (as it's leaning sideways). I don't THINK this is normal. I thought I could run the gun sideways (maybe even upside down).
Is that correct?

I'm ASSUMING I must have screwed up reinstalling the bolt...or MAYBE the lifter again.

For the bolt, I put the spring on the thing, then put the collar on it, then put it in the bolt.
I then loaded a dummy round, held it tight locked under the extractor thingy, and used a screwdriver to push the collar forward really hard until I heard it snap in place and it looked like it was captured. I then reinstalled the bolt while holding the dummy round in place. Then I put the lever in, and got that pin in eventually.

At this point, the lever had to have a LOT of force to move the bolt back. But it worked, so I just figured I'd keep going. Got it all back together and NOW the bolt goes back super easy, but like I said, if the gun is sideways, the round on the lifter will just roll out.

Any ideas what I did wrong??
Nashville Stage
Posts: 175
Joined: 08 Feb 2018 15:20
Location: Nashville, TN
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 96 times

Re: What did I do wrong? (Spring install/reassembly)

Post by Nashville Stage »

Well, I can offer a few pointers:

- Fist, if something takes a lot of force to move, *STOP*. Something is wrong. Figure out what that is and fix it before continuing. Forcing things is the number one way to break stuff.

- The cartridge lifter relies on gravity to hold the new cartridge in the proper position while closing the bolt. I haven't tried cycling the bolt with my rifle in the sideways or upside-down orientation, but I'm pretty sure that would cause malfunctions with the fresh cartridge not feeding.

- The ejector collar doesn't need to be snapped over its retaining hook. Instead, insert the ejector into the bolt with its spring and collar in place on the stud. Then compress the ejector and hold it down with your dummy cartridge like you did before while closing the bolt.
evi1joe
Posts: 10
Joined: 07 May 2021 02:02
Location: North Florida
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: What did I do wrong? (Spring install/reassembly)

Post by evi1joe »

QUESTION:
How much torque do I use on the rear tang-screw to hold the stock on?


------
I know nothing about lever guns, but assumed the bolt "grabbed" the bullet as it pushed it up the lifter and held it so it couldn't fall out. However, it appears the bolt just pushes the bullet into the chamber as the lifter holds it in position. So while you can shoot them at a 45 degree angle, a 90 degree angle or upside down won't work. I was just thinking of shooting it with a vtac barricade, where you have to lay on your side with the gun on its side and shoot--I guess you'd level the gun to work the lever. :)

It wasn't an insane amount of pressure, but I made sure the bolt-pin was driven in, so it wasn't that, and the bolt-pin retaining screw (which is too long) wasn't too tight, so it wasn't that. According to the video I was watching (see link) those were the only two reasons for a bolt hanging up, so I figured that maybe the lever wasn't at the right angle or something (there was no hammer or trigger in the gun).

I changed out all the springs (I used the blue on both ends of the Palo Verde main spring), and put the right washer under the trigger leaf spring--with a dab of blue loctite.

I'll have to do it all one more time when I get my rear sight from Russia. :)

The ejector collar was pushed in just like the guy does it right here (it is cued up to minute 4:55), so I'm not sure if it was a necessary thing or not: https://youtu.be/K0r0l5MRNaU?t=287
Reese-Mo
250 Shots
250 Shots
Posts: 468
Joined: 07 Apr 2021 13:08
Location: Florida Swampland
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 97 times

Re: What did I do wrong? (Spring install/reassembly)

Post by Reese-Mo »

Here's what I found while recently experimenting with with ejector springs on my new '92 in .44 cal.

First is that the INSIDE diameter of the spring is important. It should not be too loose on the ejectors shaft. Then I found that the collar fit is dependent on how the spring fits. And finally I found the "collar hook" won't catch the collar unless I do something about it like you did.

I know that there are rifles out there where the collar hook will catch the collar and where you can actually change the ejector spring _without_ actually removing the bolt from the receiver. There are videos to that effect online. I tried the method used, and... wondered why it didn't work. Reason being that the hook doesn't catch the collar. My hook is parallel to the bottom of the bolt, which I think is correct, so either the hook is too small, or the collar is too small, and they don't engage. Apparently there is some degree of variation from rifle to rifle. Therefore, as you discovered, you need to remove the bolt, stuff the parts into the bolt, hold everything in place with a dummy to put it all together again.

There is one video I saw, where the pin that holds the lever in the bolt is used as a "slave" pin instead of a dummy round. I tried that, and the collar/hook engagement on my rifle was such that even very carefully driving the pin back out to get the lever installed, resulted in the collar slipping off the hook, and partially blocking the hole in the bolt. You can try that, maybe have better luck, but everyone says to just use a dummy, and it works just about every time (unless you really fat finger things and parts fly all over creation).

What I found with some springs, is that the spring is loose on the ejector shaft (remember what I said about the INSIDE diameter). That allows the collar to tilt on the shaft. Heck, the shaft may be a bit "tilted" anyway on my rifle, just so the collar can engage the hook. Maybe yours too. When that collar is tilted or cocked on the shaft of the ejector, its a hard beast to depress with a dummy round. Don't expect the dummy round to "straighten out" on its way into the chamber, it won't. You need to have the dummy straight before hand, and you need to keep it straight, which means the ejector is fully depressed.

Like you, after it all went together (and the collar no doubt slipped off the hook and is resting on the lever pin) my rifle was smooth as can be.

It pays to experiment with springs. If clipping a coil, leave the clipped end against the back of the ejector face, not on the collar end. The collar needs to be square with that ejector shaft for things to run smoothly. Unless you cycle the lever while hell bent for leather, you'll most likely want a spring that pops a loaded round out easily, while the lever is moving slowly.

If you assemble the rifle without the ejector, you'll see that it runs smooth on first stroke of the lever.

And.... as a general word of wisdom, there are two, possibly three springs to fiddle with on the '92. First is the ejector spring, which is all about easy lever throw. Not compressing the ejector as strongly, takes tension off the rear of the bolt and the locking lugs, and you'll get a much smoother rifle. Second is (maybe) the trigger spring, which can be "cured" by just adding a thin washer under it if you really gotta. Last is the lever catch spring, which maybe needs attention if its horribly too strong. You basically want a catch on the lever that's strong enough to keep the lever in place while the chamber is unloaded, the hammer back, and you smack the shoulder stock down. Not much spring is needed in that case, and my Rossi came from the factor "pre-clipped". Others report the same, so it probably doesn't need futzin' with.

And remember, "spring kit" suppliers will sell you all sorts of things that "improve" your rifle, just to take your money, unless they have some sort of magic engineering skills that the factory can't grasp, that is.
Reese-Mo
250 Shots
250 Shots
Posts: 468
Joined: 07 Apr 2021 13:08
Location: Florida Swampland
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 97 times

Re: What did I do wrong? (Spring install/reassembly)

Post by Reese-Mo »

Lever gins don't work upside down. Sideways.... You may need to shom the right side feed rail a bit.
User avatar
HarryAlonzo
500 Shots
500 Shots
Posts: 989
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 00:20
Location: Sedona
Has thanked: 248 times
Been thanked: 281 times

Re: What did I do wrong? (Spring install/reassembly)

Post by HarryAlonzo »

Not so. The Winchester Model 71 will feed TU, as will the Savage 99, I believe. I don’t know Marlins, but I’m betting that all side ejectors will feed TU.

Not that this is a great advantage. I’d rather have the ability to drop a round in from the top on an empty chamber, as you can do with a 92, 86 and others (?)
Reese-Mo
250 Shots
250 Shots
Posts: 468
Joined: 07 Apr 2021 13:08
Location: Florida Swampland
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 97 times

Re: What did I do wrong? (Spring install/reassembly)

Post by Reese-Mo »

Well I meant classic Browningchester designs. The 1886 wont feed reliably upside down, so the 71 shouldn't either, as they are the same except for minor changes and cosmetics.
Archer
2000 Shots
2000 Shots
Posts: 3942
Joined: 04 Feb 2014 05:30
Location: SoCal Loco
Has thanked: 137 times
Been thanked: 610 times

Re: What did I do wrong? (Spring install/reassembly)

Post by Archer »

I won't say the 71 won't feed upside down but I will say I'd be slightly surprised at them being consistently reliable that way.

I have heard that the Marlin 336 series guns will feed upside down. In fact I have an older friend who got his first Marlin .30-30 because it would feed in odd attitudes where the Winchester would tend to jam. That said a friend of mine got a Marlin 336 about 6-10 year ago and a Marlin 1894 in .357 and at least one of them if not both would not consistently feed upside down when we tried them.

I would anticipate the 1895 Winchester and the Browning BLR and MAYBE the Henry Lone Ranger weapons would probably both feed in odd attitudes but I don't think any of these is a controlled feed gun so it could easily be that they might get hung up even if they would feed most of the time.

Tube feed lever actions lost out to bolt actions once the stripper clips were common because the bolt was just easier to use in a prone situation.
evi1joe
Posts: 10
Joined: 07 May 2021 02:02
Location: North Florida
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: What did I do wrong? (Spring install/reassembly)

Post by evi1joe »

I just replaced the springs because (a) I figured these were likely to be more rust proof--I'm in FL and it's super humid, and (b) I thought it might make a smooth new gun even smoother.

The washer under the trigger leaf-spring brought my pull down to a nice, crisp 3.25-3.5# break (which is perfect for me)--I also smoothed out the edge where there's engagement, and cleaned & lubricated everything in the gun.

All that's left is to shorten the tube-spring (assuming it's too long for my 16" gun). I'll be ordering the one from Steves Gunz along with the steel follower soon.

* I'm going to put the Skinner rail on it since I have an extra SIG Romeo 5 red-dot just sitting here; however, I may go back to the buckhorn, as it looks like it would be fast and easy to use out to 100Y.
Reese-Mo
250 Shots
250 Shots
Posts: 468
Joined: 07 Apr 2021 13:08
Location: Florida Swampland
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 97 times

Re: What did I do wrong? (Spring install/reassembly)

Post by Reese-Mo »

The only tube magazine Browningchester that works upside down is the 73, because of its vertical carrier system. There was the 1876 variant (modeled after the '73) that was pretty much just a reworked model for a slightly larger caliber. I suppose it would feed the same as a '73. The '86, '92 and '94 all rely on gravity to hold the forward end of the cartridge in place. So... angles that prohibit the use of gravity to do that, make for unreliable operation. I've not tried it, but some say that if you cycle the action really fast, you can get by at odd angles with those. The later '95 was box mag fed, and also didn't suffer from the gravity issue.

Marlins are fickle. I've only shot a few, and none upside down.... but reports are "they work fine" and also "the bullet jams on the top of the receiver". Dunno what to say, but its usually a 336 that's being talked about.
Post Reply