357 and a big deer

[Moon Tree]

I"ve tried to work up a good deer load for my Rossi 92 in a .357. I thought I had a good load, after Wednesday evening's hunt, I think I need to go back to the drawing board. My load is a 168 grain Keith style SWC on top of 13 grains of Accurate #9. It chronographs right at 1700 fps. I would be limiting my shooting range to 50 yards

I deer hunt to fill a freezer. Of course if a Boone/Crocket deer would walk by, I'd shoot it. All of the deer I've taken in the past have been have been 100 to 120 pounds field dressed. A couple have been in the past have push 140 pounds field dress.

Fate has an evil sense of humor. Here I am hunting with the smallest "deer gun" I own and the largest bodied buck I've ever seen walks up.

When I got to my stand I realized that I had left my shooting glasses, a customized (jerry rigged) pair of glasses with a Merit suction cup aperture attached. Not only that, but I had left my normal glasses back at the cabin, also.

OK, my shot would have to be within 30 yards this evening. For worse case scenario "fun" I had shot to the rifle at the range without glasses. So, I was pretty confident that I could put a bullet in the kill zone at 30 yards.

I had been in the stand for maybe 20 minutes when I see legs on the ridge at about 80 yards. It was a doe. She went over the hill. I bleated but she didn't come to me. A couple minutes late I see another set of legs at the same spot. I think fawn. Since I've never taken a deer with a .357, even a 60 pound yearling would be a trophy for me. So, I bleat again.

I see legs to my right about 25 yards out. I adjust myself in the ladder stand in preparation of the shot. A larger buck steps out, but his vitals are covered by a tree. One more step big gun. He takes the step. With the best sight picture I can get with no glasses, i squeeze the trigger. He drops. I know immediately I got a spine shot. He flops around for a moment giving me another shot to finish him off. I put a bullet through his rib cage. He flops for another moment. His head is still up. I put another bullet through his rib cage. He kicks around again. He's still not finished.

I climb down the stand and walk over to him. I use my Blackhawk (better sight picture at arms length) and put a bullet through his neck.

I apologize to him for not making his passing as quick and painless as possible. I sprinkle tobacco on him giving thanks for his life.

The buck was a pretty nice 8 pointer. His field dress weight was 180 pounds.

The bullets were pass-throughs. And there was a small amount of blood for trailing. The 2 shots through the rib cage, both did about an inch worth of damage around the wound channel, through both lungs. It would not have been the easiest of tracking jobs to have found him if my first shot had not hit his spine.

So I"m back to the drawing board in search of better bullet next season. I'm thinking I might try the Ranch Dog 180 grain mold with the hollow point option.

These pics were taken the next day. Rigor had set in, so he looks like he's sitting up

[Durf]

Nice buck moontree

[Ranch Dog]

Very nice buck Moon Tree and I wouldn't be to hard on yourself as this hunting stuff is very dynamic with a lot going on. I think you did a great job!

It goes with out saying that I think a large meplat is important so I think you are on the right track. I always thought that the Lee 358-158-RF would be a good hunting bullet at a fair price if it had been a gas checked design, but…

358-158-RF_90303.jpg

NOE does offer my 359-175, I'm not familiar with his prefixes on the molds but It was designed for killing from from 357 Mag rifles. Personally, I would go with the flat meplat as I'm not impressed with hollow points for big game hunting. I also believe that the bullet needs to be of tough alloy so that you can put the wood to it as far as chamber pressure goes. With this combo, you are going to knock some big holes through critters with the 357 Mag rifle.

Here is a R92 357 Mag kill at about the same distance as that of your buck. You can see the entry wound high on the shoulder from the large flat meplat. The bullet was my TLC359-175-RF sized to .358" for the R92.

[Moon Tree]

Thanks Durf

Micheal thanks so much for the advice. I do have a couple question about SCW vs RFN with a large meplat. I went with the SWC design because of the large rim, I believe is called a driving band below the pointed part of the bullet. I was thinking this would cut a bigger, better hole. Well it seems to have cut the size of the bullet .358. One bullet was recovered that had gone through some bones. The point had mushroomed. I saved the bullet, BUT I left at the base of the tree were the deer was hung for quartering. grrr So I can't get measurements at this time. My initial thoughts on the large meplat RFN was it would "part" the skin/tissue more than the SWC would. Now I'm starting to think maybe the large meplat would actually mushroom better.

Your thoughts.

Why don't you like hollow pointed lead bullets for big game hunting? I do think it would require A LOT of experimentation to find the perfect combination of hardness, toughness and speed to have a good bullet that would penetrate without fragmenting. And, that's just not even achievable in a cast bullet.

I've been wanting to avoid gas check bullets, even though they have some major advantages. Just being lazy, mostly. haha But, given the choice of gas check or jacketed bullet, I'd go with the gas check. And I have no real issue with modern jacketed bullets, either. I shoot them in my .243 and .270. It just I want to hunt with this 92 in as period correct style as possible. And I like the idea of making my own bullets.

Thanks so much for your help.

[rman]

Nice buck! I wouldn't beat myself up Moontree. I've made good hits on deer with expanding jacketed bullets and the deer still ran off aways. My first deer ran 50 yards or so and when I field dressed him, his heart and both lungs were mush. Adrenalin takes over and they're dead - they just don't know it yet.

[Moon Tree]

Thanks rman. I'm really not beating myself up. I know a deer usually runs a ways before it drops, unless there's a spinal shot. My biggest concern is there a better load I could be using for the .357? And would there have been enough of blood trail to follow if this deer had gotten out of sight with a double lung shot? Judging by the blood left by this deer in the short distance it traveled I could have probably tracked, but it would not have been a big neon sign of a blood trail. I would have been going drop to drop. So if there's a bullet that make a better exit wound, I'm all for it. I hate losing any animal I shoot.

[Ranch Dog]

My initial thoughts on the large meplat RFN was it would "part" the skin/tissue more than the SWC would. Now I'm starting to think maybe the large meplat would actually mushroom better.

Morning Moon Tree, I started this yesterday morning but had a bunch of hunters here so ended having to save it as a draft as they kept me out all day.

If I remember right, a Keith style SWC uses a 70% meplat which is fairly flat point but my belief is that a hard cast bullet at high velocity must be used to take advantage of the "cookie cutting" potential the nose profile might offer.

My experience with pushing lead through well over a thousand big game animals in the last decade and half, is that any energy penetration robbed from an alloy mushrooming (failing) as it meets the resistance of hide, is not worth the magic of the hole a large meplat is capable of cutting.

The math behind the cut is well tested but only valid if the meplat is maintained through penetration.

(Velocity X meplat Diameter in inches)/400 = permanent wound channel

Here is what that would look like with your bullet at 80 yards. I took you 1700 FPS muzzle velocity and estimated the actual velocity at 80 yards.

Keith_SWC_WoundChannel.jpg

The cutting "authority" of the meplat is only maintained by meplat diameter and velocity. As resistance is met; hide, bone, and organs, the wound channel is reduced. As alloy fails (mushrooms) wound channel is reduced.

My feral hog hunting affords me an unbelievable opportunity and as I got into casting I used this opportunity to test everything under the sun. At the time, cutting a custom mold was cheap so it was easy to test nose diameters to see if wound channel theory held water. I tested bullets from a pointed nose to trash cans and alloys from pure lead to lino & monotype. What I found is that a meplat of approximately 72% was "King" for maintaining energy through a cut thus maximizing the hole cut through a critter. As far as alloys, I found that a water quenched Lyman #2 (straight or clone) with a bit of lead shot added was the "King" of home melts as far as delivering an alloy that could maintain the meplat as it passed through a big game animal.

I personally have never seen a "mushroomed" bullet, I've tested soft alloys, equal the hole cut through a critter with meplat and velocity. I have seen soft alloys not make it through a critter and in my thorn country that is a mortal sin. No blood trail equals a lost critter here. That is why I like meplat, the "shock" value of the meplat coupled with velocity is huge but cutting a one inch hole through a critter leaves an unbelievable blood trail.

Why don't you like hollow pointed lead bullets for big game hunting? I do think it would require A LOT of experimentation to find the perfect combination of hardness, toughness and speed to have a good bullet that would penetrate without fragmenting. And, that's just not even achievable in a cast bullet.

This has been my experience but more so that not they don't make it through a critter and that goes back to the blood trail thing.

Personally I don't shoot plain base cast bullets from a rifle. Too much fiddling to get them figured out and maximum velocity for the cartridge is always compromised. In that all of my shooting only steers me to hunting, I would probably go back to jacket bullets if I couldn't shoot gas checked bullets.

[Moon Tree]

Thanks Micheal for all the help. I'll have some forensic photos and more question Wednesday.

[Ranch Dog]

Cool...

[mr surveyor]

I reckon we're waitin on the drug store to get them pichers developed?


jd