Reloading Data for 92 .357

[donhuff]

KH,

Yes, you are right. I too think those reloads are too hot. That primer is very flat, and the rounded edges are square. That funny mark at the 3:00 position, usually come from the ejector hole in the bolt face, because the ejector is not quite tall enough to come to the top of the hole. My 454 does that and there is no way to fix it without a new taller ejector.

The "incipient case head separation" ring/mark is unusual on a straight wall case. I have been reloading for 40 years, and have seen it only once. It happened last year with one of my rossis. Don't understand why the rifles do it and revolvers don't. Someone suggested that I might be crimping too hard and that was stretching the brass when it fired.....I'm skeptical. I've split a lot of pistol brass long ways, because it was just plain worn out, and I have separated the heads on some bottle neck cases because I loaded too hot or set the shoulder back too far.

Two things jump out at me when looking at the picture of your loaded round, that suggest that they have too much powder in the case.
1... the soft nose of the slug is squeezed flat and the lead is bulged out over the jacket. That took a lot of pressure!
2... He could not get the slug into the case far enough to make it to the crimp groove, and thus has NO crimp. (which is not good with 296 powder BTY). That suggest to me that he was compressing the powder to the point that it was not compressing any more and then, flattened the nose with more pressure.

It could be that he wad shooting these in a revolver, and because of the barrel/cylinder gap, or a slightly larger bore, they were ok.
I'd be interested to see how much powder he had in one of those.
And #2 pretty much kills the theory of too much crimp causing the head separation doesn't it!

[Archer]

In addition to what Don said, it looks to me like the case head is showing signs of markings from the breach face. Not huge compared to the the head separation ring and the cratered / flattened primers.

I'm not a big fan of compressed loads in general as they are hard to load and easy to screw up.
A moderate compression is one thing but I've seen book loads that were not noted as compressed that even with a VERY LONG drop tube and/or vibrating the case to settle the powder still resulted in a deformed bullet if seated to length. Even if they look RIGHT you generally need to inspect them after some time to make sure they didn't grow from the pressure of the compressed powder inside the case.

[donhuff]

It seem like I remember reading about some brands of 357 brass being really thick in the head area, to the point of reducing the case volume enough to make a hot load go over the top if not lowered when using that brass.

When I saw the S&W stamp on his brass, that jumped it my head. And that looks like some of the old brass that I have. It's been so long ago I cant remember the details. Super Vel brass also comes to mind on this. I have some of both, BUT it is mixed in with all my other 8-9 hundred pieces of 357 brass.

[Kiwi-Hunter]

I will pull and weigh one as I get time. also have sent an email to the person I got them off.
So he may remember the info on powder etc.
He's abroad at the moment.
They say a picture is more than a thousand words or something like that.
You guys are very good with the info
KH

[Kiwi-Hunter]

Don't know at this stage what the powder is, weight was only 12 and 12.2.
I just weighed the loaded cases to find a weight difference if any. and there was. 253.8 to 252.1 and weights between.

pistol powder.jpg

357 powder.jpg

[donhuff]

Well, that's not what I was expecting. I figured it would be 296 or some other ball powder. That does not look like 4227 either so I'm guessing it is not your ar2205. I'm very color blind, but that looks like red dots to me, but there is no way you could use that much alliant red dot powder. Also, there is way too much red. That's just the color of that powder. Plus 12g would be a double charge of that powder.

I like using this web site for a quick reference of different powders and charges http://stevespages.com/357p_4_158.html
But then I compare it to my loading manuals.

I looked for something that used about 12.0 grains as a max charge with a 158 grain bullet, is a flake shape, and there aren't that many. Blu Dot maxes at twelve and is a flake powder.... but those flakes are definitely not blue. Blue is one of the colors I CAN see.

Universal which I assume is your ap70, tops at 7.3, so I don't believe that's what it is.

I don't know what it is. At one time I had 48 different kinds of powder, but there are still probably twice that many more out there that I have never even seen before.

What weight is that projectile? I think my theory about there being too much powder in the case, not compressing, and bulging the bullet nose, does not look to be true anymore. Was there room left over in the case for more powder? Now I wonder why the bullet nose was bulged???

[Archer]

It isn't unusual for there to be a difference in loaded ammunition weights.
Tolerances in the weights of the bullets, brass, powder all add up and don't always even out.

JUST Checking, you are talking 252.1-253.8 grains on the loaded rounds correct?
(You didn't mention the units.)
1.6 grains difference in loaded rounds isn't in my experience unusual.
I wouldn't be too surprised at that difference in loaded factory ammunition.

[Kiwi-Hunter]

Hi Don and Archer. Seeing you two seem to have the most input into the thread. The e-mail back was not helpful and its not ADI AP70N.
JUST Checking, you are talking 252.1-253.8 grains on the loaded rounds correct? Yes correct.
(You didn't mention the units.)
1.6 grains difference in loaded rounds isn't in my experience unusual.
I wouldn't be too surprised at that difference in loaded factory ammunition.

I was surprised as I thought it would have been higher powder weight but 12grains??
The projectile weight 158grain
cases 84 gn.
Just weighed out 12gn it is not compressing but I would say there is no gap as such between the powder and the projectile.

the 4.jpg

unknown&blue..jpg

I might punch a couple more down range of the lighter ones tomorrow if time allows.
Other than that lets move on to get this 357 up and running as sweet as possible.
Which will have a few photos as the load progresses

[donhuff]

About 25 years ago, I bought an M1A which had 150 rounds of reloads with it. The first two rounds seemed weak and the third was extremely hot. I pulled the rest of them as I was to scarred to shoot anymore.

Once I loaded some .223 ammo for my bolt action. It showed no signs of pressure at all in my gun. My buddy shot one round in his rifle, and it pierced the primer. He didn't shoot anymore of them.

You never know how each individual gun will react to a certain load. It really makes me respect the manufactures that produce ammo for retail sales.


OK, moving on!

Since I see that you have some Blue Dot. You could make up some loads with that powder. It has always been a good magnum powder. You wont get top velocity with it, but it will get up there pretty high. And a lot of people love Green Dot for mid range cast loads. I have never used it because it is so close to Unique in burn rate, and Unique is my favorite powder for mid range loads.

[Archer]

I was going to post last night but must have gotten into this morning's board maintenance cycle as I couldn't get anything posted nor pull up any threads or pages from the site.
---------------
A LOT of standard defensive rounds use around 6 grains of a medium to fast pistol powder.

The .357 Magnum looks to run maximum powder charges with a 158 grain bullet from around 8.3 grains of Unique to 17.0 grains of H110 with almost identical pressures and about 125 FPS difference in velocity (out of a handgun! The Rifle data doesn't list Unique but does list a 500 FPS increase in the MAX H110 load out of a 20" Winchester.)

There are several powders listed that run a maximum charge of 11-13 grains for the .357 Mag. I don't have samples of them and don't recognize the powder in the pic. I don't as a rule even try to identify powders by appearance. I DO know some of the powders I work with by sight but others (Especially some of the rod rifle powders) look enough like each other that I couldn't tell having poured them out moments ago and I won't try. Like Don I'm leery of other folks loads. I generally won't accept other folks reloads unless I'm salvaging components. I usually stay clear of commercial reloads as well as individual reloader's products. There are about 3 commercial reloaders in the U.S. that I trust there loads without reservations and a couple others I MAY use if I can't get ammo otherwise but I've seen enough reloads sold at ranges that do not meet my quality standards (For example even on rounds that look good but on emptying a loaded chamber find an impacted bullet) that I'm very cautious of them. I've even seen some velocity swings with my own ammo due to ambient temperatures that I would not expect. With a load that normally generates about 825 FPS in .45 ACP with a 230 grain bullet I've seen it gain 100 FPS in summer heat warm but not hot to the touch.

There are a lot of powders that will work and will give good results out of the .357.
The 2400 you have coming in is good, Blue Dot works, I'm another one that likes Unique for medium range loads or some of the other calibers mentioned above.

Basically pick a powder and a bullet and we can dig up some data that should help.
I haven't been able to get info from my bud on the FTXs yet but I am hopeful I still might be able to do that soon.