357/38 Levergun Plated Bullet Load Advice

[talan2000]

Hi Everyone,

I've lurked on this site for a bit now and am a new, and proud owner of a Winchester 1892 in .357 as well as a Henry Big Boy in 357. I've been poring over the internet trying to figure out a decent target/plinking load using the reloading materials I have at hand. Ideally one that would work in both rifles - though the henry's 1:30 vs the Winchester of 1:18 (I believe) are dramatically different.

Initially I did not appreciate the significant increase in velocity that the 20 in barrel will generate - and I didn't pay attention to the 1200 FPS limit that the plated bullets seem to have. I figured I could just load up a hot pistol round and blaze away unconcerned...So now, aware of the 1200fps issue with plated, I'm trying to reverse engineer a load with materials I have access to.

FYI My indoor ranges won't allow exposed lead (though they are inconsistent on that for sure (as they don't balk at JSP or even 22lr lrn) but that eliminates cast bullets from consideration for now...

1. So -- what's a good plinking load using PLATED bullets and titegroup for a lever gun? [that's what I have access to now]

I have about 2000 Xtreme 158gr SWC and 125Gr FP/RNFP bullets. I also have 3-4lbs of tightgroup. My intention was to make a single target round I can use in my Ruger GP100 as well. I have about 200 357 cases and probably 300 38spl. I've read that loading 38spl to 1.50OAL helps eliminate feeding issues. So far, I've just loaded about 75 357Mag rounds with a 158gr SWC to 1.59OAL for now using a 38 SPL+P load of 4.3gr Titegroup.

I'd sure appreciate some feedback on that combination - especially if you think it will exceed 1200fps out of a 20in barrel. Also - if you guys have experience saying that 1200 fps isn't a real limit with PLATED bullets from a rifle I'd love to hear it. And what to look for for problems if it is?

3. If the 38SPL+P load isn't a good one in my gun, I'll probably just drop down to a 38spl load using titegroup - any issues with loading a 357Mag to 38spl charges with titegroup? In other words - any load recommednations at <=1200 FPS using 158gr Xtreme SWC or 125gr Xtreme FP?

4. Is titegroup a good powder or should I just abandon it? ( I have managed to get 1 lb of 2400 - but I was going to use it to create a HOT load for JACKETED bullets - in this case Hornady XTP 158g HP. ) What would be the optimum light load powder if one could actual find it anywhere? (HP38?)

5. Is there a source for Jacketed 357/38's (cheap) that I could look into as an alternate to cheap plated bullets?

Thanks for bearing with me on this long question - first post I think too

Todd

For those in a similar search for knowledge, I posted a similar thread here awhile back but most folks don't seem to have 357leverguns for plinking
http://www.texashuntingforum.com/forum/ ... ost4781937

[Archer]

MY numbers below won't correspond to your question numbers above. Sorry about that.

First of all Xtreme bullets recommend staying less than 1500 FPS.
http://www.xtremebullets.com/Bullet-Loa ... s/1952.htm

2nd for load data go HERE:
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

RECHECK the data in the handgun section since you are intending to use the same load in both handguns and in the rifles. (They should overlap BUT there are sometimes differences due to the load development.)

3rd
I looked at 125 grain bullets, using Tightgroup in the above data and the velocities ran from 1461 to 1586 in a 18.5" Winchester barrel with a 1 in 18.75" twist. (I looked at this weight because of the profile of your components. A heavier bullet is going to go slower for the same operating pressure limits.)
DATA from the site listed below:
Manufacturer Hodgdon Powder Titegroup Bullet Diam. .357" C.O.L. 1.590"
MIN Grs. 6.8 Vel. (ft/s) 1,461 Pressure 36,500 CUP
MAX Grs. 7.5 Vel. (ft/s) 1,586 Pressure 41,200


That indicates your chosen load is pretty light in comparison to the above. To be expected as you say it is a .38 SP load. I would expect that loading a .38 SP load in .357 cases might give slightly lower velocity than out of .38 cases ASSUMING you are crimping the bullet in the same place.

Figure a slight increase in the above velocities with the 20" barrel.

4th
Although Xtreme says to use a mild taper crimp you WILL need to crimp for the tube magazine. Since the magazine spring puts the bullet under compression you want enough crimp to prevent the bullet from impacting under the spring compression because that will raise pressure, cause feeding problems and result in inconsistent results when fired. This may require you to trim the brass. Don't go overboard in either direction with the crimp.

I've used a reasonably firm crimp in the past with plated bullets without problems. Too much and the bullet may compact while the brass springs back and you get the loose bullet problem you are trying to avoid. Too little and you get impacted bullets during feeding or under magazine compression OR in heavier loads you may find revolvers actually pull the bullets and jam the gun.

I like to use the Lyman M expander dies. Over the years I've been more pleased with the way they expand the brass than with any other brand expander and I've purchased a half dozen or more of them to replace the factory expanders from my handgun and straight wall rifled die sets.

5th
I've loaded around a thousand .44 Mag using plated bullets in the past with rather heavy loads of 2400 and run them through a 24" Winchester without any issues. Those bullets were probably not as good as the Xtreme brand.

Depending on the gun and how rough it is plus how fast the twist and how fast the pressure starts the bullet you MIGHT get some leading or stripping of the bullet. Check often with your chosen load especially during the initial load development. IF you get something building up stop and make corrections. Unless the Rossi is rough internally I would not really expect the bullets from Xtreme to be deconstructing themselves. I HAVE seen cast and copper washed cast cause problems (especially in a 9mm Beretta that somebody managed to blow up).

6th
I'm not sure there is any 'ultimate' powder. I don't have experience with tightgroup but I know a number of folks using it for various loads.

I am unaware of ANY cheap sources for jacketed bullets currently. Even cast and plated have gone up quite a bit and demand has often been outstripping supply for decent jacketed bullets since Obama got elected. It was getting a little better and then a year and a half ago he said 'gun control' and it got stupid again.

You can also run the same data source linked above for the .38 SP.

I personally like the 158 grain weight for the .357 rifle but I'm not sure your SWC profile will feed well in the 92 Rossi. I prefer a TC or a RFN profile for the lever actions.

A common round for plinking between the handguns and the rifle IMO is going to depend on your definition of plinking and how much you are willing to loft the rifle rounds if you are pushing the range a bit. When I got around to getting .44 handguns I lowered my loading pressures a bit from pretty darned stout to something in the warm range. It's more comfortable to shoot in the short guns although the folks at the other positions in the tin roofed pistol shed don't quite pack up as fast as they used to when the Magnaported or compensated revolvers went off and the muzzle blast was deflected off that tin roof. I don't generally load what I'd call light loads for the rifles but then I don't do cowboy action and most of my plinking with them is at slightly longer than typical handgun ranges. Of course some of the handgun plinking is more fun if you are stretching the range a bit also.

[talan2000]

Archer,

Thanks very much for taking the time for such a detailed response.

Load Info:
Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities. We do not recommend velocities over 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and only a light taper crimp.
Any velocities over 1200 FPS we recommend either our Heavy Plate Concave Base or Hollow Point products for superior accuracy. We do not recommend velocities over 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and only a light taper crimp.

I've read and re-read the Xtreme Load info disclaimer several times and was confused since they don't offer a HPCB in 38 cal. But after re-reading it again I think you are right (yeah) and that I can go to 1500 without any worries -- HPCB/HP recommended only for "superior accuracy". That's great as it frees up a LOT of velocity without too much lead concern.

Thanks for the Hodgdon link - they really have improved their site recently, no? That's where I got the 38sp +P 158gr load of 4.3gr with Titegroup from. I will likely use the recipe you site for the 125gr I have.

Thanks for the crimping advice - I've heard lots of things on that and previously I've loaded only 9mm on my Dillon 550 - and Dillon dies provide a nice taper crimp which is quite simple to setup. For the 38/357 I have Redding Dies on the 550 and am learning how to use
Redding's combo seating die/crimper combo - initially I was getting case (not bullet) shaving in the process - generating lots of brass flecks and the occasional very tiny brass circle falling off the rounds...I think I have that situation resolved now - my crimps never penetrated the copper plating but are a very distinct roll edge.

Thanks for the Lyman expander feedback - with the Dillon setup the Powder measure/funnel expands the case so no expander is needed. I laugh at myself as I type this because in my ignorance I mistook the "3 die titanium carbide" die set I had from redding to be like Dillons (with a separate crimp die), and placed the Redding expander die in station 3 - behind my powder measure/expander. And then the seating / crimping die as a "crimping die" in station 4. I was unknowingly using the redding expander ball to seat the bullets (with it backed way out) and then crimping only in station 4. This I believe caused my case shaving somehow. A call to customer service yesterday helped identified this oops moment... surprisingly all the rounds I made are in spec and crimped nicely

5. Thanks for your 44mag experience. It gives me confidence that the xtreme bullets actually will perform above their rating. I've read interesting other threads here and there indicating that with fast powders longer barrels like my Winchester 92 20in actually slow down the bullet past 16inches. This is interesting. As you note, a combination of rifle twist rate/barrel length/powder burn rate comes into play. An interesting comparison might be to chrony the same bullet out of my 1:38 Henry vs my 1:26 Winchester (just read 20in is 1:26 not 1:18.75).

6. Thanks for letting me know cheap, available, and jacketed don't exist in today's world (sigh). I 'll stick to my 200rds of Hornady 158gr XTP for the hot loads I guess. Overkill for paper, for sure.

Sorry there's not an ultimate powder - from what I gleaned - H110, 2400, IMR 4227, Lil Gun, Trailboss, and Bullseye are common. Titegroup less so but ok.

I was starting to get spooked about using such a low volume powder after the interweb fear mongers - but upon reflection I think titegroup will work fine used with caution.

Thanks again for your help -- I initially intended to buy a Rossi and was seeking a used one at the gunshow I went to in n. Texas last weekend when I came across a Ltd Edition Winchester 1892 with 20" octagonal barrel and Marbles tang site with all paperwork/boxes -- so I decided to drop $900 instead of $400 on a used Rossi. She looks pretty even if I haven't yet fired her!

Todd

[donhuff]

Todd,

I shoot 3.5g of bullseye behind a 158lrn through my rossi in 38 cases. It works just fine. I'll bet your load of titegroup will work good too, since both powders are close to the same speed.

I have a 123g swc that does not feed in 38 cases, not because it's a swc but because it is too short, but it will work in 357 cases. With your plated bullets, just seat your 125s long till they do feed, since you don't have to worry about a grease groove. The SWC bullets "should" feed ok. My 357 r92 will feed almost anything, providing that the length is adjusted to make it work. Don't worry so much about the OAL being exactly what the book sez. With such a light load you could seat it much shorter and not get into pressure problems. That is with the 357 cases, since your 38+p in 38s, I would not go shorter, but then you need longer to make it feed anyway. The OAL stated in load data really matters when working close to maximum levels.

The few times I have used plated bullets, I put a good crimp on them. It did crack the plating on some, but I saw no problem with it.

I too use the Lyman M die, mostly cause most of my dies are made by lyman. I have a small lathe so I make my own expanders, and try to get them to expand the case to, 1 or 2 thousands under bullet diameter. This keep the cases from swaging the bullets down as I use wheel weights plus a little tin. Those plated bullets are pretty soft, so watch for this when using them. This makes me have to have two expander balls as I size my cast .002 over bore size, and a jacketed bullet will fall into the case if I use the cast bullet expander.

[talan2000]

Don,

Thanks for the feedback. I see you use LRN - I thought I was supposed to be afraid of setting off a chain reaction with those in the magazine tube? That's why I went with SWC and FP...

I guess there is some difference of opinion on this? Is it due to the shape of the bullet (ogive) not being a spitzer tip or is it that lead is soft vs FMJ so not to worry?

I ask as I passed on some 38spl factory ammo at Cabelas yesterday due to it being LRN.

Thanks!

Todd

[donhuff]

Yeah, lots of "opinions" on that subject. Most of them just repeating what they have heard. I'm going to do some kind of a test on it someday.

"I" think that it takes a pretty sharp point, and one made of something harder than the primer, to be a problem. It takes a fairly hard deep blow to make a primer go off, as evidence by a light firing pin strike leaving a fair sized dent in a primer that don't go pop. I just don't see that happening with a 38 special.

Those Cabela's factory LRN were probably loaded with swagged bullets too, most are. And they are even softer than the cast ones that I use. They also lead bad too!

[Archer]

I'd advise going ahead and getting a separate crimp die.
I think you'll be happier in the long run.

Even on my rifle stuff where I don't have an individual crimp die I seat and crimp in two steps. Set up the die for seating without a crimp. Then back out the seater and set it up for crimping and run all the rounds through again.

Yeah it is an extra step and more equipment or an additional setup time but IMO it is worth the trouble.

I use Bullseye a bit because I've got it and I load a couple low volume cases where it works better than most other powders. For somewhat larger volume cases Unique is my go to powder but I haven't tried it in the Dillon powder measure yet. I've got the adapter for a standard measure like my Redding since there are quite a few stick and flake powders I prefer.

[talan2000]

Thanks for the advice, I'll look at those crimp dies. Any thoughts on the LEE FCD?

T

[Archer]

I've been favorably impressed with the Lee FCD in 9mm and 45 ACP that a buddy of mine has for jacketed bullets. I have NOT tried it with plated bullets and I've heard cautions regarding using it with cast bullets.
He has the standard 3 die Lee set and we've single staged a hundred .357s and a couple hundred .38s with them setting the seat and crimp as individual operations. I'll be trying out the FCD on .357 and Xtreme 158 TCs soon but haven't quite gotten there yet. I offered to loan the FCD out of the deluxe set to my bud but he wanted to learn how to do it first with the equipment he's been able to assemble. For a while last year if you saw a set of dies in a caliber you needed you grabbed it even if it wasn't perfect. (I waited about six months for a Forster NM .308 size die to come into stock.)

I have a set of Hornady 9mm dies with a Lee taper crimp die (and Lyman M die) and a set of Dillon 45 ACP dies with a Lyman M expander die that I've used for about 15 years. I've used both die sets with all bullet types without problems in those calibers.

I need to get the .38/.357 caliber conversion for the Dillon 550 and start hammering some ammo out from components I've had on hand quite a while longer than I've had guns for the calibers.

I've also got a Dillon Square Deal set up for .44 Mag and it works beautifully.
You might also consider getting the Dillon crimp die for .357 if it is available and isn't priced like gold.
Or since you already have Redding dies for the .357:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/185588 ... 357-magnum

[mr surveyor]

I've loaded a "few thousand" combined using the Lee FCD in .38 spl, .357 mag, .44 mag, .45 acp, .30-30, and recently added 9mm dies. The vast majority of what I load are commercial cast bullets (.30-30 excluded, so far), but none are "oversized". I've been lucky enough with my firearms than none have required oversized bullets. The sizing ring in the FCD is great for smoothing our potential case bulges with standard sized bullets, but it has a bad reputation when used with oversized cast bullets. The cast .358 small bore bullets, the cast .430 for the .44 mag suffer no ill effects from the FCD, and it's a perfectly concentric crimp every time. Also seems to me to extend case mouth life, but that may just be an illusion. For the last 5-6 years I probably shoot only about 200-300 rounds per month, so single stage and the extra FCD step is no big deal. Besides, it gives me one more opportunity to admire and appreciate the wonders of DIY.

JD .... Still a Determined Rookie