.454 Casull & .45 Colt reloading

[Ranch Dog]

Planning to use the wheel weights. I will not try to reach the full Casull power, but about 1500 - 1600 ft/s will be OK for my purposes: mostly paper and can killing. And in .45 1000 ft/s is enough. For hunting I will buy factory-made ammunition.

Personally, I would still consider the C452-300-RF to get the longer nose of the bullet. At the intended velocities, I would just shoot it without the gas check.

I have Lee .454 round ball mold, using in my muzzle loading Remington 1858. Should I use for them .45 or .454 case?

Use the 454 Casull case, cut down on keeping up with two types of cases. The slight oversize ball is a good thing, it will help fill the throat of the chamber. Seat it at half it's diameter.

Got to run, more later (tomorrow).

[Tuco Ramirez]

Andrew,

I have been looking for any reloading data I can find on RU websites. Thank goodness for translation software. Even with the software there is some things lost in translation.

I did find a RU website that may be able to help you find reloading data using the powders you have access to. Here is one site that looked pretty good. http://forum.guns.ru/forumtopics/12.html

[vtoran]

I took some information from that forum, including the chart above. But really, there is not much about .45 & .454. Weapon of these calibers is not wide spread in Russia.
Some more information - Russian Sunar.410 is like Vihtavuori N105; 2400; SR4759 and IMR4227

[Recruit]

I have limited reloading experience but am just thinking out loud here.

Could a load be safely worked up with a chronograph only? What I'm getting at is start by filling the first case with a very small amount of Sunar 410, say 1/4 full. Check velocity with the chronograph and work up slowly from there. At 1/4 full, a powder weight can now be established to work up from instead of relying on an eyeball measurement. Also, load and fire only ONE cartridge in case a stovepipe were to occur.

This is certainly not ideal but I've often wondered how others have dealt with relatively unknown powders. In this case, we at least know it's a medium burn rate powder somewhere between V-N105 and H-4227.

If I'm crazy, I apologize and please feel free to correct me. Again I'm not suggesting, just thinking out loud for those with lots of reloading experience to chime in on.

[Tuco Ramirez]

I cannot find anything on the .410 powder. What I have found listed in QuickLoad is Kazan Sunar 308w. Here is one for the 45 Colt.

Cartridge : .45 Colt (SAAMI)
Bullet : .451, 250, Nosler JHP 43013
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.580 inch or 40.13 mm
Barrel Length : 5.5 inch or 139.7 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.

Matching Maximum Pressure: 26250 psi, or 180 MPa

or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %

Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time % Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms


Kazan Sunar 308W 110.0 27.1 1.75 1045 47.4 19721 5496 0.690

From what I can see the Kazan Sunar 308W is listed in a lot of loads. Most if not all are near or over 100 percent case capacity.

RD several of your load notes I came across had this powder listed. For plinking at cans I would feel much safer using a powder and load data we know is safe.

[Tuco Ramirez]

I have limited reloading experience but am just thinking out loud here.

Could a load be safely worked up with a chronograph only? What I'm getting at is start by filling the first case with a very small amount of Sunar 410, say 1/4 full. Check velocity with the chronograph and work up slowly from there. At 1/4 full, a powder weight can now be established to work up from instead of relying on an eyeball measurement. Also, load and fire only ONE cartridge in case a stovepipe were to occur.

This is certainly not ideal but I've often wondered how others have dealt with relatively unknown powders. In this case, we at least know it's a medium burn rate powder somewhere between V-N105 and H-4227.

If I'm crazy, I apologize and please feel free to correct me. Again I'm not suggesting, just thinking out loud for those with lots of reloading experience to chime in on.

No your not crazy... The .410 powder is a fast burning powder. From what I have found so far from reading reloading data on Russian sites is the powder they have available to them can vary a lot. The .410 powder may work. But it will take someone with experience and some test equipment to verify the results.

I believe in the end we can find a safe load with the 308w powder.

I shoot Military surplus power and even it can and will vary by lot #. One can never be to safe when it come to reloading.

[vtoran]

Some more information on Sunar-410: 1 kub. cm is about 11-12 grains

[donhuff]

vtoran,

Do you have access to salut powders?

I have read on another site where several people have used it in pistol cartridges with good success. I looked up Russian salut powder and found that there are 7 different types (burn rates). The posts that I found did not say which number salut they were using, but that it had come from "pulled down" 7.62x39 cartridges. The salut-5 is the only one I see that says it is to be used in 7.62x39. They claim it compares well with our UNIQUE, which I use a lot of in reduced power loads for everyday shooting at targets and tin cans. One fellow list some reload prescriptions for 357 and 454 with a 250g bullet in the 454. His load of 10.5 to 11.5 salut, gets him 1300 to 1400 FPS out of a 20 inch carbine. Here is a copy of what he wrote.....

Here are some results that I had

.357 mag Herters 6 1/2 in bbl wsp primers
6gr Salut 158gr SWC avg 1107 fps
7gr Salut 158 gr SWC avg 1203 fps

454 Casull Ruger SRH 9 1/2 in wsr primers
10.5 gr Salut 250 gr FNL 1178fps
11.5 gr Salut 250 gr FNL 1261 fps

454 Casull 20 in. carbine wsr primers
10.5 gr Salut 250 gr FNL 1322fps
11.5 gr Salut 250 gr FNL 1398 fps

All loads seemed mild and no signs of excess pressure in my guns. I think that 5 grains of Sault would be OK in 38spl.
Sault gives a little higher velocity then Unique for the same weight of powder.
Hope that this is usefull to someone.

[Ranch Dog]

I took some information from that forum, including the chart above. But really, there is not much about .45 & .454. Weapon of these calibers is not wide spread in Russia.
Some more information - Russian Sunar.410 is like Vihtavuori N105; 2400; SR4759 and IMR4227

I suspect the burn rate is the the same but not the physical characteristics. Let me use the three "known" powders, QL does not have SR4759, to show the differences of a powder and the results within a burn rate range.

This example uses a max charge for the 454 Casull with the Lee 300-grain bullet. IMR 4227 becomes limited because you cannot stuff enough in the case. Really, these powders have nothing in common other than they go bang.

Lee_C452300RF_powders_vs_410.jpg

My gut feeling is that 410 is just that, a 410 bore shotgun powder. These powders are designed to do one thing, push out a heavy load of shot at low pressure with a large volume of powder.

Where I would have liked to go yesterday, but the airliner needed to be flown, was that I thought 7,62 would be the powder to investigate. It sits tighter in the burn rate line with other powders plus by name association alone there is no doubt in my mind that it is a rifle powder used with the 7,62x39. I have been able to find that reference on the web. Take a look at the various characteristics of its "burn rate mates", the performance of these "burn rate mates" is much tighter.

Lee_C452300RF_powders_vs_762.jpg

It is quite unfortunate that I pulled a large lot of Russian "battle" ammo several weeks ago. I used the powder to fertilize my cactus garden, tossed the bullets, and then reloaded the cases with the powders I use in the 7.62x39. The reference that I mention was for this specific headstamped ammo and I now know that the powder was Sunar 7,62.... damn, I should have saved it as a curiosity if nothing else!

There is no doubt in my mind that Sunar 7,62 was designed to perform with the confines of a medium capacity bottlenecked case so it is not an optimal choice for the 454 Casull. Based on my digging, I am comfortable enough to make a recommendation for the rifle/bullet combo using Sunar 7,62. Personally, I would used the most conservative powder in the table above, the data for IMR 4198, until I could determine a specific gravity and record the velocity of during load work. I think the exact comparison will be V~N120 but use the powder producing the highest pressure for start.

In that Sunar 410 is made to send a heavy load of lead down a big bore it would probably be more useful for in creating a nice performing big game load for the critters you are chasing. Of course shotgun powders are made to use a large charge, to fill a large volume, at low pressure. Placing them in the confines of a metallic case can quickly spell disaster! We need to figure out a bit more about the powder.

Some more information on Sunar-410: 1 kub. cm is about 41-12 grains

This is really throwing me. If 1kub. cm = 1cc, something is wrong with the weight measure. Is 41-12 grains = 41.12 grains?

1 cc of any powder is going to be around 14 to 16 grains. The exact measure should be carried to at least decimal points.

Can you look into this? Having this info is essential as working with shotgun powders can blow a barrel off real quick.

[Ranch Dog]

I have limited reloading experience but am just thinking out loud here.

Could a load be safely worked up with a chronograph only? What I'm getting at is start by filling the first case with a very small amount of Sunar 410, say 1/4 full. Check velocity with the chronograph and work up slowly from there. At 1/4 full, a powder weight can now be established to work up from instead of relying on an eyeball measurement. Also, load and fire only ONE cartridge in case a stovepipe were to occur.

This is certainly not ideal but I've often wondered how others have dealt with relatively unknown powders. In this case, we at least know it's a medium burn rate powder somewhere between V-N105 and H-4227.

If I'm crazy, I apologize and please feel free to correct me. Again I'm not suggesting, just thinking out loud for those with lots of reloading experience to chime in on.

No doubt the suggests are appreciated Recruit but with a shotgun type powder I simply would not use it unless I could specifically identify more characteristics of the powder than the burn rate. The trouble with using volume to start is that there is a great chance that a bullet will end up being stuck in the barrel from a squib load on the low end of case capacity. More must be know more about the powder before you start.

I cannot find anything on the .410 powder. What I have found listed in QuickLoad is Kazan Sunar 308w. Here is one for the 45 Colt.

I posted a load for Sunar 308w but it appears to be a powder more suitable for a large capacity bottlenecked cartridge. I see possibilities for a squib load using it. If any load less than a compressed load is used, there is no doubt in my mind that you will end up with a bullet stuck in the barrel.

I shoot Military surplus power and even it can and will vary by lot #. One can never be to safe when it come to reloading.

I have too but have steered away from them, actually giving away cannisters of powders, since I started using pressure trace equipment. You can find supposed substitutes for the various powder but when you put the trace to them they quite different.