454 Stock ?

The Rossi Model R92, a lightweight carbine for Cowboy Action, hunting, or plinking! Includes Rossi manufactured Interarms, Navy Arms, and Puma trade names.
User avatar
Ranch Dog
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 9398
Joined: 23 Jan 2012 07:44
Location: Inez, TX
Has thanked: 1837 times
Been thanked: 2281 times

Re: 454 Stock ?

Post by Ranch Dog »

jbaker30 wrote:
groo01 wrote:Groo here
The 454 can drive a 300gr bullet at 1600 from a 7 1/2 in revolver!!!!!!
Add 300 to 400 fps for the rifle, and remember the 454 runs at upwards of 60000psi.
The kick from a 5lb gun will make a "hot" 45-70 300gr seem mild!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm surprised ranchdog hasn't chimed in here. 454 casull kicks harder than a hot 45-70. Negative ghost rider, come by my place and take a couple of shots with my Ruger #1 launching a 350gr hard cast @2400 fps with 4000 ft/lbs of energy and you might think differently. I promise you it will knock your fillings out! However you might enjoy it and become a Ruger #1 fan like me. By the way I have a 92 454 casull also.
JB
Just tied up with the farm work JB.

The numbers are from my reloading record software.

I have never met a 5 lb Rossi 92, my 454 is a 20" barrel that weighs 7.14 lbs, but 11 ounces is scout scope, base, and rings, so the rifle weighs 6.45 lbs. Maybe a 16" barreled 454 weighs 5 lbs, but I doubt that 4" of barrel weight is 1.45". If that were the case, the entire barrel would weigh 5.8 lbs!

My Rio Grande 45-70 weighs in with scope very near the same, 7.18 lbs. The setup on that rifle weighs 1 lb, so naked, it is the lighter rifle at 6.18 (and why I love it as a hunting rifle).

So, at their fighting or hunting weight, they are the same or at least within .04 lb of each other.

I shoot a 320-grain hard cast bullet from the 454 at 1975 FPS. The estimated pressure is 60,000 PSI, and I will confirm that this spring with my pressure trace equipment. I don't doubt the forecast is correct as my brass is lasting one load, shoot the case twice and the web separates. This rifle with this bullet and load generates 24.18 ft/lbs or recoil energy.

I shoot three bullets, all hard cast, out of my Rio Grande chambered in 45-70 Govt and load all three at 35.0K PSI as I figure that is about all the pressure the Rio Grande is good for.

The lightest, my 310-grain bullet leaves the barrel at 2155 FPS and pushes back with 35.39 ft/lbs of recoil energy. The middle weight bullet is 350-grains at 1985 FPS and 36.16 ft/lbs of recoil energy. My 435-grain bullet clocks in at 1730 FPS and generates 35.03 ft/lbs of recoil energy.

Apples to apples on the weight, rifle and or bullet, the 45-70 Govt delivers more of a punch. Some of it is that the weight of the powder charge is part of what generates the energy and the 45-70 Govt is always at least twice that of the 454 even at only half the pressure.
Michael
Image
User avatar
Ranch Dog
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 9398
Joined: 23 Jan 2012 07:44
Location: Inez, TX
Has thanked: 1837 times
Been thanked: 2281 times

Re: 454 Stock ?

Post by Ranch Dog »

Hylander wrote:Lets say I happen to pick up a 454.
I do not like the stock set, mostly the recoil pad.
Will the standard butt stock fit ?
I bought 454 Casull stocks for my 44 Mag and 45 Colt, I cannot picture shooting the 454 Casull as it is intended to be shot with the traditional Rossi 92 butt stock. Haven't installed the stocks yet, summer project after they are refinished.

As a note reference my previous post I shoot my 45 Colt with a 290-grain hard cast bullet at 1760 FPS and 19.72 ft/lbs of recoil energy. My 44 Mag, a 300 grain bullet with numbers similar to the 45 Colt.
Michael
Image
jbaker30
Posts: 13
Joined: 09 Jan 2015 07:15
Location: central Florida
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: 454 Stock ?

Post by jbaker30 »

Ranch Dog wrote:
jbaker30 wrote:
groo01 wrote:Groo here
The 454 can drive a 300gr bullet at 1600 from a 7 1/2 in revolver!!!!!!
Add 300 to 400 fps for the rifle, and remember the 454 runs at upwards of 60000psi.
The kick from a 5lb gun will make a "hot" 45-70 300gr seem mild!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm surprised ranchdog hasn't chimed in here. 454 casull kicks harder than a hot 45-70. Negative ghost rider, come by my place and take a couple of shots with my Ruger #1 launching a 350gr hard cast @2400 fps with 4000 ft/lbs of energy and you might think differently. I promise you it will knock your fillings out! However you might enjoy it and become a Ruger #1 fan like me. By the way I have a 92 454 casull also.
JB
Just tied up with the farm work JB.

The numbers are from my reloading record software.

I have never met a 5 lb Rossi 92, my 454 is a 20" barrel that weighs 7.14 lbs, but 11 ounces is scout scope, base, and rings, so the rifle weighs 6.45 lbs. Maybe a 16" barreled 454 weighs 5 lbs, but I doubt that 4" of barrel weight is 1.45". If that were the case, the entire barrel would weigh 5.8 lbs!

My Rio Grande 45-70 weighs in with scope very near the same, 7.18 lbs. The setup on that rifle weighs 1 lb, so naked, it is the lighter rifle at 6.18 (and why I love it as a hunting rifle).

So, at their fighting or hunting weight, they are the same or at least within .04 lb of each other.

I shoot a 320-grain hard cast bullet from the 454 at 1975 FPS. The estimated pressure is 60,000 PSI, and I will confirm that this spring with my pressure trace equipment. I don't doubt the forecast is correct as my brass is lasting one load, shoot the case twice and the web separates. This rifle with this bullet and load generates 24.18 ft/lbs or recoil energy.

I shoot three bullets, all hard cast, out of my Rio Grande chambered in 45-70 Govt and load all three at 35.0K PSI as I figure that is about all the pressure the Rio Grande is good for.

The lightest, my 310-grain bullet leaves the barrel at 2155 FPS and pushes back with 35.39 ft/lbs of recoil energy. The middle weight bullet is 350-grains at 1985 FPS and 36.16 ft/lbs of recoil energy. My 435-grain bullet clocks in at 1730 FPS and generates 35.03 ft/lbs of recoil energy.

Apples to apples on the weight, rifle and or bullet, the 45-70 Govt delivers more of a punch. Some of it is that the weight of the powder charge is part of what generates the energy and the 45-70 Govt is always at least twice that of the 454 even at only half the pressure.
Thanks for the info ranchdog I new you had the numbers on the 45-70.
JB
User avatar
7.62 Precision
Posts: 174
Joined: 04 Sep 2013 23:44
Location: Alaska
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 84 times

Re: 454 Stock ?

Post by 7.62 Precision »

Two things a .454 stock will benefit from:
First, bedding the tang with a bit of fiberglass cloth will protect the wrist of the stock from splitting.
Second, the angle of the butt at the recoil pad should be changed. As shipped, the angle is appropriate for anti-aircraft use. This isn't a shotgun, it is a rifle. I usually just lay the stock against a Winchester stock and mark the same angle and cut it off. Then if you want, add a better recoil pad.

These stocks are not necessarily interchangeable between rifles. They are pretty close, sometimes a perfect fit, sometimes not. There are minor differences sometimes. If you trade stocks, it might require minor fitting.

My recommendation is to cut the stock to the right angle and install a steel shotgun-style buttplate. In the old days, this type of buttplate was a special order item on many rifles and gives a custom look. You would have to ensure that you can get one to fit the small Rossi stock and may need to reshape the stock a bit at the top.

Otherwise, there are a lot of other types of metal buttplates you can get inexpensively, like a normal carbine buttplate, or a nice universal flat brass checkered one that you can get from Brownells. Also, lots of different muzzleloading buttplates in steel or brass are available from places like Track of the Wolf or Dixie Gunworks and can be fit.

I would tend toward replacing the buttplate over replacing the stock.
User avatar
7.62 Precision
Posts: 174
Joined: 04 Sep 2013 23:44
Location: Alaska
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 84 times

Re: 454 Stock ?

Post by 7.62 Precision »

Image
A shotgun-style buttplate I installed on an 1895 Winchester.

ImageImage
Marlin 336 with brass checkered buttplate available from Brownells. This is very simple to fit and comes in brass or black finish.
User avatar
Ranch Dog
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 9398
Joined: 23 Jan 2012 07:44
Location: Inez, TX
Has thanked: 1837 times
Been thanked: 2281 times

Re: 454 Stock ?

Post by Ranch Dog »

Very nice, thanks for the ideas!
Michael
Image
User avatar
akuser47
Founding Member
Founding Member
Posts: 5070
Joined: 12 Feb 2012 11:43
Location: ohio
Has thanked: 1266 times
Been thanked: 482 times

Re: 454 Stock ?

Post by akuser47 »

Nice stock work as always 7.62 glad to see your still at it. +guns
Image
Live Free,Ride Free, Or Die Fighting, For The Right, To do So!
User avatar
7.62 Precision
Posts: 174
Joined: 04 Sep 2013 23:44
Location: Alaska
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 84 times

Re: 454 Stock ?

Post by 7.62 Precision »

I meant to mention, Agreeing with what RD and others said, because of the fast-burning powders used for the .454, intended for short pistol barrels, recoil is much less than similar loads in a .45-70.

As far as a buttplate goes, my go-to .45-70 is a Winchester extra lightweight weighing 7 lbs with a steel buttplate. You know it when you touch it off. But I can shoot it, I just don't shoot it a lot all at once.

The .454 is not going to be a problem to shoot - I have fired many rifles with steel buttplates with similar recoil.

One thing I have noticed is that the advent of AR-15s have changed people's perception of recoil. It always surprises me to hear of people who feel the recoil on a .45 Colt or .357 Rossi 92, or a AK, or a .243 are uncomfortable.

Another solution to the buttpad, if you don't like the looks (I think the Rossi pad is dead ugly, and I generally don't care for pads on a lever gun) is to put a leather cover over it. I did this on a Win 71 that someone cut short and put an ugly pad on.
Archer
2000 Shots
2000 Shots
Posts: 3942
Joined: 04 Feb 2014 05:30
Location: SoCal Loco
Has thanked: 137 times
Been thanked: 610 times

Re: 454 Stock ?

Post by Archer »

I must agree 100% with 7.62 Precision's comments regarding recoil in the pistol caliber carbines and the AK.
I can't comment too much on the .243 Win although I have one I haven't got it to the range yet although I will note that in deer hunting states it is often thought of as a perfect first rifle or perfect rifle for recoil sensitive folks of either sex provided they can hold and hit a fine target.

I've typically thought that soft gushy recoil pads may give the rifle (or shotgun) some running room so that it feels as if it's thumping you harder. I will admit I did once manage to feel it a bit on a day when I tried to see how fast I could run an extended mag of 12g 00 buck out of an old High Standard shotgun and on the same day ran a mag of .30-30 as fast as I could out of a lightweight Win 94. I think I managed to pull something in my sternum so that pushups hurt for the following 3 weeks or so after that.

I'm not certain if I blame the AR-15 for the change or if it is more of a matter of either no other experience at all or just almost zero practice with anything. I've got a coworker who tells me his 50 Beowulf is a handful and a full mag is about all he wants to run out of it at once. I'm going to have to get some trigger time with it to see if he's blowing smoke or telling truth.

My .45-70 Winchester is a 26" Octagonal with the crescent steel buttplate and I don't find it at all uncomfortable. You will know you've touched it off but so far just about everyone who's shot it ends up grinning from ear to ear.

BTW, SWEET pictures. always enjoy seeing your work.
That brass buttplate is a keeper. I might wind up having to use that part on something.
User avatar
7.62 Precision
Posts: 174
Joined: 04 Sep 2013 23:44
Location: Alaska
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 84 times

Re: 454 Stock ?

Post by 7.62 Precision »

Beowulf is tame compared to a .45-70. I have two, one with the pepper pot brake and one without.
If he has an issue with the recoil, I can give some pointers by PM or something on reducing it with the correct stock.
Image

You reminded me with your post about your rifle - some people's issue with recoil stems from using crescent buttplates incorrectly. They can be uncomfortable with nominal recoil if just one point is held against the shoulder.
Post Reply