Tested the CJ on pigs

The unique revolver-cylinder fed rifle. Chambered in 22 Rim Fire, 44 Mag, and 45 Colt/.410 bore.

Tested the CJ on pigs

Postby Oz judge » 17 Aug 2017 01

Ok it's been a while since my last post , but for good reason. TRYING TO NUT THIS CJ OUT .
A few months back I noticed that sized 452 cast bullets would free fall through the cylinder. So I ordered a mitutoyo dial calliper & 0-1" mit micrometer, from the dial calliper I measured the cylinder from 454 - 456. So I ordered a .454 Lee hollow base muzzle loading mini ball & a cbe ( Aus ) custom over sized Colt 455 mould. After working out my alloy mix @ 10.5 bhn my Lee mini mould dropped at .456 & my 3 cavity cbe mould dropped 2@ .457 & the hp cavity @ .4585" . Then I removed the cylinder & slugged all 5 chambers 3 @ .456 & two @ .455 . THEN I COULDN'T REFIT THE CYLINDER!!! After cleaning & lubing I was able to tap it shut . ( thinking it would leave a mark or marks to work from ) instead it locked up solid. I mean 100% solid, couldn't COCK the hammer or pull the trigger couldn't budge the cylinder . So I pulled the whole action apart ( I had less than 5 days till my annual pig hunting trip ) found a YouTube video called Taurus judge part 1 & 2. That was exactly what I needed . While it was 100% stripped I polished everything & deburred just about every part that needed some hand finishing clipped 1&1/2 coils from the hammer & trigger Spring , & finally tapped out the cylinder . The problem was the bottom left side of the frame was to large & I tapped two grooves into the cylinder & that must of put side loading on the cylinder guide pin , that jammed the spring loaded plunger up & jammed the cylinder stop thingy. After grinding the frame everything went back smoothly. Well after all that I ran out of time to stuff about with sizing & coating cast bullets. So I bought 100 star- line cases & 100 225gr hornady ftx bullets & loaded them up with 8.5 gr of adi ap70n powder & then ran into bullet seating issues with my Lee 45 Colt dies . While trying to crimp them some of the tips were squishing a bit & they were fine but others were seating to deep. Even after backing the die out the same thing happened . So I just batched them as long & short seated.
Well on test firing I found they really sounded weak ! They grouped about 6" off hand @ 40' yards.
I loaded 3 45' ftx & 2 federal 3" 000 buck & set off. 1st large boar about 160lbs maybey 180lbs was about 40 & running away yards I fired 2x 000 buck rounds & 2 45 ftx rounds . The boar showed no sign of a hit no blood found. I may not have hit the boar but I'll never know. Next was a small boar of only 20-25lbs @ 40 yards Texas heart shot. Fired 1 x 000 buck round & 1 pellet struck just left of its anus & exited it's under belly then my dog grabbed it. Next was a 80lbs boar running right to left at 25-30 yards, fired both 000 buck rounds with no signs of a hit & one ftx round right through the left shoulder & heart , it instantly skidded up on its nosed followed close behind by my dog. It bleed out in around 35-40 seconds. The ftx penetrated the lower chest completely .
I then swapped the CJ for my 454 casull for the rest of the trip.
My thoughts I believe there is a lot of bleeding off going on in the very oversized chambers, the cases were blackened with soot , so power is right down with .452 bullets. The 000 buck seem to be doing there job but the ranges I'm shooting at is at the extreme range limit of these shells. But the action is fast & running pigs can get out of range fast. My hunting with the CJ is far from over , but much tweeking needs to be done. I didn't use any win pdx1 rounds because of the dogs . The CJ really throws those no.4 Bucks all over the place.
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Re: Tested the CJ on pigs

Postby Ranch Dog » 17 Aug 2017 07

Geeze, doesn't end does it? I owned both the 44 Mag and 45 Colt and gave up on them. You haven't mentioned the forcing cone (yet) but I felt the lack of performance came for its design, not only can you drop a bullet down it, you can drop most of the cartridge down it.

freebore02.jpg

After the bullet jumped the cylinder gap, it still had to travel across 1.7" of freebore were it didn't touch metal. No way that ends well.
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Re: Tested the CJ on pigs

Postby GasGuzzler » 17 Aug 2017 16

Ranch Dog wrote:After the bullet jumped the cylinder gap, it still had to travel across 1.7" of freebore were it didn't touch metal.

Whoa!
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Re: Tested the CJ on pigs

Postby Oz judge » 02 Mar 2018 04

Wow Michael that forcing cone issue really kinda seals the deal doesn't it. Like I said I was getting about 6" off hand at 40 yards that's probably all I'll get. But I haven't given up on the CJ yet, I just haven't been doing much shooting as of late. Ideally I want to get the group down to around 4 " off a bench @ 50 yards & I'll be happy
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Re: Tested the CJ on pigs

Postby Oz judge » 02 Mar 2018 04

I forgot , the last time I used the CJ with the 225gr ftx loads listed at the start of this thread , well I was quite surprised that they were quite a bit hotter than the mushy weak factory loads I tried in the CJ. THE ftx loads were close to a yard higher at 50 yards & were quite snappy & louder than the American eagle & S&B LOADS. But there was still black soot around the case mouths. To me that means the pressure is still low & the cases arn't expanding to seal the chamber. It makes it hard to develop good safe loads for this CJ as all information say don't exceed factory 45lc puss loads. Although the cylinder walls are paper thin there still modern steel with large over sized chambers. It's a real pity they didn't make the cylinder walls thicker .
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Re: Tested the CJ on pigs

Postby Ranch Dog » 02 Mar 2018 06

I wonder if today's brass is harder than it was when the 45LC was first introduced. Soft brass would form to the cylinders and seal. This is a problem with other rifles that need to be confined to the 45 Colt specs; the Thunderbolt rifles have the same problems.
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Re: Tested the CJ on pigs

Postby Oz judge » 03 Mar 2018 04

Ok thanks again Michael. I'll try some annealing & see what happens. Won't be for a little while though.
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Re: Tested the CJ on pigs

Postby CavScout » 14 Mar 2018 11

Ranch Dog wrote:I wonder if today's brass is harder than it was when the 45LC was first introduced. Soft brass would form to the cylinders and seal. This is a problem with other rifles that need to be confined to the 45 Colt specs; the Thunderbolt rifles have the same problems.


The initial 1873 cartridges, both .45 Colt and 45-70 Government, were copper formed like a Rimfire Case.
The primer went inside the case, and crimped in place at the bottom. The 1873 .44 WCF was externally primed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Colt ... ridges.JPG

Copied from the Firingline Forum:
The real beauty of 44-40 is that it and 38-40 are the bee's knees for the Black Powder shooter. The brass at the case mouth of these rounds is much thinner than a 45 Colt, so the brass swells to seal the chamber better than the thicker brass of 45 Colt. With the chamber well sealed, almost all the fouling stays in the bore where it belongs. 45 Colt rifles, with their thicker brass are often plagued by blowby that lets fouling past the chamber and into the action."

Something we CAS Shooters learned is that .45 Colt Revolver Cylinders vary wildly on chamber dimensions.
One typical problem is chamber mouths mic'd at 0.452", while we were loading 0.454" Lead Bullets.
The barrel groove bore could be over 0.454"... so you could get the "Pea in a Can" effect.
Close in clangers weren't affected much, but it sure showed during 200 yard side matches! :roll:

There are cheaper, and much more expensive versions of these Full Ball Bore Gages:
https://www.amazon.com/DGOL-Small-Range ... oding=UTF8

I have Starrett:
https://www.amazon.com/Starrett-S829EZ- ... al&ie=UTF8
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Last edited by CavScout on 14 Mar 2018 15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tested the CJ on pigs

Postby CavScout » 14 Mar 2018 11

Ranch Dog wrote:Geeze, doesn't end does it? I owned both the 44 Mag and 45 Colt and gave up on them. You haven't mentioned the forcing cone (yet) but I felt the lack of performance came for its design, not only can you drop a bullet down it, you can drop most of the cartridge down it.

freebore02.jpg

After the bullet jumped the cylinder gap, it still had to travel across 1.7" of free-bore were it didn't touch metal. No way that ends well.


I never thought to check the breech end of my 45/410 CJ Barrel!

I can only guess they did that for the shot-shell wad-cups?

That creates a double jump condition!
From the .45 Colt case mouth to the un-crimped 3" shot-shell chamber, reduced at the mouth... then the jump to the barrel bore leade!

No Gunsmith fix other than re-lining, or replacing the barrel! :(
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Re: Tested the CJ on pigs

Postby CavScout » 16 Mar 2018 09

Ranch Dog wrote:Geeze, doesn't end does it? I owned both the 44 Mag and 45 Colt and gave up on them. You haven't mentioned the forcing cone (yet) but I felt the lack of performance came for its design, not only can you drop a bullet down it, you can drop most of the cartridge down it.

After the bullet jumped the cylinder gap, it still had to travel across 1.7" of freebore were it didn't touch metal. No way that ends well.


Another thought...
Since you cite both the .44 Mag and .45 Colt versions having the free-bore Forcing Cone...
Maybe that was an expedient decision by Engineers to lessen Cylinder Gap Flash, in an effort to get the side shields to function?

One can only guess! ;)
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