It's not a Rossi, but...

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mr surveyor
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It's not a Rossi, but...

Post by mr surveyor »

it is a single shot.

Here's my 1870 Springfield rolling block (manufactured under contract by Remington) in .50-70 Govt.
1870 SPRINGFIELD 50-70 GOVT.JPG

This is the one I mentioned in Ranch Dog's post about .35 Rem Brass (Handloading Sub-Forum)

My Dad brought this home in the early-mid 60's and proudly stood it up by the fireplace, where it stayed for nearly 40 years. As a kid, I cleaned and pampered it once or twice a month and always had plans to put some rounds through it. The last few years before Dad died, I went on a mission to find an extractor (only part that seemed to be missing), repair of the rear sight (if I could find out what it actually came off of), and a knowledgeable antique firearms guy to give his blessing for actually shooting it. I even tracked down the maker of the aftermarket front sight, which wasn't really too difficult as it was stamped "REX". A small bit of internet searching turned up Rex Pederson as the sight maker and I was able to make contact with the son of the machine shop owner that was responsible for making the sights as a sideline business back in the 1930's-1950's. That in itself turned up some interesting history, and I hoped Rex (junior) would know if they might well have been the ones that sporterized the original rifle by cutting/recrowning the barrel by 6+ inches and adding the aftermarket sights. He thought it may have been possible, but not probable, as most of their gun work of that sort was military bolt rifles.

Anyway, I had high hopes to get this all together so Dad could at least put one round through the tube before he died, but now it's about 12 years too late. Every year since, around his June 2 birthdate, I'm reminded of the "Buffalo Gun" patiently waiting in the closet. After contacting both the Springfield archives and Remington (recommended by whoever it was I talked to with Springfield), I didn't turn up much info to supplement a 1969 magazine article we saved. There was quite a controversy over this model even going to production at the time due to the .45-70 having already been deemed superior, and the move towards repeaters. It seems that in the 1870's, porkbill politics, graft, corruption, under the table deals, were just as prevalent as today, and this gun was in a very limited production number. But, not much value to a collector.

The action and lock-up is as solid as any new gun on the market, and the bore is fantastic. I doubt any of these guns were shot much. If I could find a gun smith with the credentials to check it out, and install the ejector I found from Numrich about 20 years ago, I would be shooting it .... preferably with smokeless powder as I really don't want to get into black powder if it can be avoided. Brass is available, bullets available, and I'm sure dies could be had ... for a price.

I tend to get on this mission about every five years. Must be an affliction that needs curing ;)

jd


edit to add .... I think I should have put this in the Other Firearms sub-forum :oops:
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Re: It's not a Rossi, but...

Post by Ranch Dog »

Interesting rifle JD! There ought to be someone to look at this but probably not a local gunsmith. If your area is like my all the gunsmiths are AR part changers. You take them a real firearm and they fess up real quick. May be the fellows at Buffalo Arms would know of the best person to send it to. You need to get the rifle shot!
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Re: It's not a Rossi, but...

Post by mr surveyor »

Thanks for the "move", RD.



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Re: It's not a Rossi, but...

Post by Missionary »

Good morning
I have been shooting Rollers for more than 30 years and this is what I would do if it was mine.
#1 Get a piece of caliber 50-70brass and insert it into the chamber. Close the breach. Does the brass rattle around in the chamber front to back ? If so there may be a headspace problem. If no front to rear movement that is good.
#2 Remove the rear stock. Remove the Roller Pin holder on the left receiver side. Cock the hammer. Remove the breach block pin . Look it over carefully for any obvious cracks. Check the block for any cracks at the roller hole and the firing pin. Does the firing pin extend about 1/16th past the breach face ? Does the pin looked battered on either end ?
#3 Un cock the Hammer. Remove hammer roller pin. Check it also. Now check the roller pin holes in the receiver.. Any cracks ? Check the hammer for cracks and battering on the hammer face.
#4 Look into the barrel towards a good light. Everything look good ? Rifling, grooves, chamber area ... then again from the muzzle.. crown, any obvious bulges seen ? Check outside for cracks.

If all is well reassemble. Prime the piece of brass. Get a proper diameter caliber 50 450 grain soft cast bullet. Check your groove diameter for proper diameter. Get some 3F black powder and fill the case to 1/4 inch below the case top. Insert bullet. See if cartridge will chamber. Take carbine, rope and an old spare tire to the range. Tie rifle to the tire. Attach cord to trigger. Load cartridge. From behind a barrier about 15 feet away ( I lay flat on the ground with my feet towards the tire) pull the trigger line.
I have never seen a 50-70 blowup yet when fired with BP. I have several 1865 and 1868 models and they each past this and I shoot then regular with 2F and a 450 grain bullet.
This is my regular regimen with all rifles before I fire them. Have yet had any problems and I intend to continue to check any new to me firearm in similar fashion.
Mike in Peru
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Re: It's not a Rossi, but...

Post by mr surveyor »

Mike, Thanks for the tips. I really didn't know where to even begin on the disassembly/evaluation. Still don't have a clue as to how the replace the extractor, or even if the extractor I bought from Numrich can even be fitted for the purpose.

Is there any smokeless powder, similar to Trail Boss, that can be safely used in these old voluminous cartridges. I know it's silly, but I'm really hesitant to work with BP .... but I really want to shoot this piece of (failed) history some day :)


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Re: It's not a Rossi, but...

Post by Ranch Dog »

mr surveyor wrote:Mike, Thanks for the tips. I really didn't know where to even begin on the disassembly/evaluation. Still don't have a clue as to how the replace the extractor, or even if the extractor I bought from Numrich can even be fitted for the purpose.

Is there any smokeless powder, similar to Trail Boss, that can be safely used in these old voluminous cartridges. I know it's silly, but I'm really hesitant to work with BP .... but I really want to shoot this piece of (failed) history some day :)


jd
The cartridge is available in Quick Load so just for grins I looked at it. I had to come up with a bullet, I used the Beartooth 475-grain LFN GC which is probably not appropriate at .513", I think you need something like .515 ~ .517 (Mike ought to know). Anyway, filling the case to 105% of its capacity (16.5-grains) with Trail Boss at an overall length of 2.250" would produce 1100 FPS!
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Re: It's not a Rossi, but...

Post by mr surveyor »

RD, clear my head a bit ..... would that actually be a compressed load .... with Trail Boss?


Thanks

jd
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Re: It's not a Rossi, but...

Post by Hombre »

Mike, that was great instructions on surveying the rifle. I don't have one, but enjoyed the write-up.
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Re: It's not a Rossi, but...

Post by Missionary »

Greetings Mr.S
I cannot stress enough how important it is to look this roller over. If it had been shot for years from a known reloader there would be little need but there just is no shooting trail to follow. Maybe there is a reason it has sat idle for 60 years ?
Rollers are very easy to take apart. If you do a search "disassemble Remington Rolling Block 1870 there will be numerous step by step plans. Really roller take down is so easy South American Armies felt safe equipping farmers with them.

Ammo.. for smokeless it is very important to have at least a groove size bullet. Smokeless will not generally bump up undersize cast. Even Unique can not be relied upon to bump up a very soft bullet. So you must check that groove diameter just in front of the chamber. Do not be surprised if it is as fat as .517 or even .520. Maybe your 1870 is smaller but you must do these steps or your going to get a leaded mess in the grooves. Do not use hard cast bullets. They are not for this low pressure application.
Unique, 2400, and 5477 are my substitute smokeless powders of choice for BP cartridge rifles. I have never used Trail Boss. 2400 will near duplicate 3F peak pressure going down the bore. But BP explodes which gets to low peak pressure very fast then holds it. That is why it will bump up a slightly smaller than groove soft cast bullet. A hard cast bullet will do nothing. If you do decide to use smokeless do not get power happy. You can damage a 140 year old strong action. Rollers are strong but not indestructible. Whichever powder you choose to use get the data from the manufacturer. Start at their suggested minimum and work up. Do not pass their max loads.
BP is the only powder that will never harm a BP rifle. Do not use 4F ! 3F is ok. 2F is the standard.
An example. I shoot a 50-95 Chapparel 1876. This rifle is possibly 50% stronger than an original. I did all my testing with 3F BP. Found my most accurate load. Then shot that over a chrony. 1465 FPS with a 350 grain soft cast bullet. A 285 grainer would probably equal the old factory load of 1500 fps. But I want the 350 for better 100 yard penetration. I then called Accurate Powder and gave them the details so they could give me some 5477 guidelines. Their suggested minimum was tried and I slowly worked up to 1465 fps. My "stop here" load was almost 4 grains under their suggested max. Accurate max load probablywould have pushed my 350grainer to about1525 fps. My "stop here" load was called back in to Accurate with my Crony data. They were very happy to have it and said they would revise their suggested data with a 350 grain bullet for a 26 inch 1876 model.
Now that example is just to let you know we are dealing with an old design that was never designed for the pressure smokeless can develop. My modern 1876 could probably take the extra pressure with no damage.. but for how long ? That is why I highly recommend using 3F BP. It takes me 5 minutes to clean a Roller fired with BP. When I shoot I drop the fired brass into a gallon jug of water with 10 drops of Dawn dish soap.By the time I get home my fired brass is ready for brush to run in and out of the case. Then it gets de primed and set on a old rag mouth down at an angle and forgot till next day. It is ready to reload. Really it is a fast job.
I have never found a smokeless load that could equall a BP load in a BP cartridge rifle. Even in new made rifles. Smokeless will come close but never exceeds the accuracy. I have tried and tried. Maybe there is a magic powder I have not tried but even the Chappy 1876 likes 3F far better to the tune of .5 inch smaller groups at 100 yards.
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Re: It's not a Rossi, but...

Post by Ranch Dog »

mr surveyor wrote:RD, clear my head a bit ..... would that actually be a compressed load .... with Trail Boss?


Thanks

jd
Yes, slightly. With the bullet seated, the volume total volume of the case is 100%. So, 105% is slightly compressed.
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