Model 92 needs fixin

[donhuff]

Look at these cutaway drawings, especially the action open one, and you can see how much the ejector interacts with the cartridge. See how the ejector is pushing on the rim.

http://www.rossi-rifleman.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=833

And there is why the 357s tend to have more feeding issues than the bigger calibers do. The 38-40 44-40 cartridges had huge .525" heads on their cases. See how the ejector is pushing on the top of the rim? What you cant see is that when you push the lever all the way forward, this raises the CARRIER, and as it gets close to fully up, the rim of the cartridge will contact the ejector, and should start sliding up it and moving forward and up the carrier a little ( note the tiny gap in the drawing showing the cartridge a little forward of the "tit" on the carrier). A 357 rim is so much smaller in diameter that it has to slide up the ejector a long way before it can get up this high. Any sharp edges will hinder it's sliding.

I don't know how they got the tiny 32-20 to feed like this.

Sometimes the ejector has such sharp corners and edges that when the carrier gets all the way up, and the rim hits the ejector, instead of sliding, it bites into the softer brass and digs in. Then when you put more force on the lever, the ejector will retract. And this is a good sign that things are not slick enough. The ejector should be able to remain fully extended while pushing the round forward. This means that things are slick enough that it is not biting nor snagging and trying to jam. If you have the gunslinger spring, it is so weak that it might go in a little even if things are slick and moving like they ought to.

I know that before I said that if the ejector retracts it will help, and it does IF things are still hanging up a little. But if things are sliding and moving freely, it doesn't really mater much what position the ejector is in.

[Ranch Dog]

It's tempting to get a round file or jewlers file and hit the front edge of those cartridge guides. I'm deferring to the collective experience here since this is my first go at a lever gun.

Ahhh, you for sure didn't read what I wrote. More than likely it is the aft edge that needs adjusting. My money is that it is the pressure of the case rim on the underside of the cartridge guide because the slot cut into them does occur early enough. If you trim the forward edge of the guides, you simple delay the lifting further without getting the rimmed end up early enough to get level. The guides need to be trimmed perfectly together out of the rifle. This is why Rossi didn't do a proper repair, it takes a lot of work pulling them in and out.

If you trim the forward cut of the guides a bit too much, a little is a long ways with the guides, you will be forever trying to catch your cartridges as they will flip right off the carrier and out of the rifle.

I also avoid any filing or similar cutting without taking the rifle apart. The receiver and the lower components in the receiver are a tight fit. You do not want any shavings getting in the mix as it will only confuse issues that you are having with function.

This isn't a quick fix, that is what Rossi tried, but a slow steady process that needs to be studied before you start. I think I've worked on the guides on three out of my five rifles. The first was my 454 Casull and I screwed them up because I charged into it without really learning what is taking place with the feed. I've since learned to enjoy the process and have absolutely nothing on my plate the day I decide to do the work. Pretend you are a gunsmith being paid $80/hr and momma needs a final $640 for that new car. Well, today, she's gon'na get it. Enjoy a cup of coffee while you do it.

If you trim a little too much of the guides you are %@*&$ and it is a $60 error if the guides are in stock.

Good luck Wyo! This is what separates the levergun nuts from the AR part changers. I think you have it in you!

[Ranch Dog]

I've been doing the same thing RD. I cast all this morning, then painted, cut some checks and put them on. Then sized them all.

Not like I did a whole lot of bullets, only 3 or 4 hundred, but I rejected a lot of them and cast them over again. I'm trying to make some flawless bullets for accuracy testing and not my regular, as long as it'll get down the barrel, bullets.

I had to stop one time and go to the hardware store and get a roll of solder, cause I'm out of tin again. Boy what a difference 4 oz of tin will make when added to 10 pounds of wheel weights. I went from culling near 50%, to only 5 %. And the 5% were usually something I did wrong.

Not to move off subject but same here. Working with linotype and my 30 caliber bolt guns. I detailed it here: Lee Loader: Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part II. Probably will be out the rest of the day with this. I also want to move two deer feeders out back. So in other words; casting and deer stuff, a day isn't better than that!

[Wyowind]

So this is where I find myself today and probably tomorrow since I have a couple of days off.

IMG_9244.JPG

Don and RD, thanks for the good info.

Don - some pics of the bolt and ejector but I can tell you've seen them close up before. Nice detailed description of what is and isn't happening around the cycling of the shell and bolt face interaction.

IMG_9242.JPG

IMG_9241.JPG

Ranch Dog. I actually did see what you said about the cartridge guides and adjusting the rear of them. Its just an optical illusion that makes the front of the guides appear to be the "bad guy." I appreciate your knowledge and previous success with the 92 so I resisted temptation.

So far I have buffed and sanded the ejector a little and will probably hit it again. I'm getting ready to hit everything with brake cleaner and just start generally smoothing everything. I don't have a bench grinder but I do have a dremmel, small files and wet/dry sand paper - 400 and 1500 grit.

If you Gents have any other special secrets I'm all ears (eyes on the internet). Thanks again.

[GasGuzzler]

Simple test: Make sure the the ejector works smoothly in and out of the bolt while it's apart....especially the last few thousandths. Check the shaft of the ejector, not just the protruding portion (although that's important). The spring rides along the shaft and can hang. My oldie had ribs or machine marks all along the shaft that made it notchy.

[btoran]

not sure if it's a photographic artifact, but it looks like there's rust on the ejector spring, collar, etc. if so, why? I've mentioned it before and don't mean to be pushy, but now is a great time to change the ejector spring and do some of the other action work, including grinding a bunch of parts (one of the carriers, trigger leaf spring, ejector, and one or two others).

[Wyowind]

MarkTwain was quoted to say "all you need in life is confidence and Ignorance then you'll find success."

Well I found success. Probably a lot of ignorance on my part but I had you guys to fall back on. The Rifle now feeds all of my cartridges. It's a little rough but if I run it like I own it, all the rounds will chamber.

It still leaves some scars on cartridges at the 5:30 location but I'm hoping a few more range sessions will smooth it out.

Thanks everyone.

Btoran, The dark spots on the ejector isn't rust. Not sure if it was paint or what it was. It's gone now, after polishing with sandpaper. I didn't have a spring kit but I did shorten a couple ( main spring , carrier detent and The lever latch spring). Need a range session to see if it still fires well. I believe the trigger still comes forward with enough jazz to make it go BANG !

[donhuff]

Wyo,

Glad you got it going. Keep working at it, and it will eventually get to working smoother. And yes buy all means. Work it like you own it. A lot of people cause feeding issues by working it slow and easy. They will work that way, but everything has to be slick and smooth.

RD, see in the first pic that he has that file ready to work on those guides!!!

But seriously, next time you have it apart. Take the ejector and hold a cartridge rim up against it, in the angled position like it was still under the guides. Notice how because the rim is round and at that angle, that the only place the rim contacts the ejector "wings" (that's what WE call them) is on the inside of the wings, on that sharp edge. And for the rim to move up the wings edge, tends to make that edge bite or cut into the rim. This can sometime stop the rim from sliding up, and instead, holds it in place till the cartridge moves forward enough to push the carrier down and then we have a JAM. In your picture of your ejector there looks to be a tiny bit of brass shavings or a smear right in that spot.

Take you file (Hooray you finally get to use it) and break those inside edges so that they are not sharp. Round off that edge good and then polish the snot out of them. I bet you will see a different feeding gun when you get it back together.

On pic three. There is really nothing to do to the bold, so don't spend any time working on it. So people worry about the machining marks. But they do not have any impact on the function of the gun.

Most of the time when you get scars on the brass. It is caused by the sharp bottom inside edge in the loading port. Again use that little file and break that edge. Then sand and polish.

[Ranch Dog]

But seriously, next time you have it apart. Take the ejector and hold a cartridge rim up against it, in the angled position like it was still under the guides. Notice how because the rim is round and at that angle, that the only place the rim contacts the ejector "wings" (that's what WE call them) is on the inside of the wings, on that sharp edge. And for the rim to move up the wings edge, tends to make that edge bite or cut into the rim. This can sometime stop the rim from sliding up, and instead, holds it in place till the cartridge moves forward enough to push the carrier down and then we have a JAM. In your picture of your ejector there looks to be a tiny bit of brass shavings or a smear right in that spot.

R92_ejector_csi.jpg

Dang Don, that is some serious CSI kind of work!

Glad it is up and running Wyo and another pair of cartridge guides saved for another day!

[btoran]

Nice work getting it going. One thing we should have mentioned is that the upper screw on the outside of the receiver on the left side (non loading gate side) can bind up the works sometimes. Try backing it out. If cycling is better you can carefully grind the bottom of that screw a bit as it doesn't have threads all the way down. That way, you can reset the screw tightly.