Model 92 needs fixin

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Wyowind
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Model 92 needs fixin

Post by Wyowind »

Help ! And thank you ahead of time.

I previously posted my initiation to Rossi customer service about this new Model 92 in 44 mag (Rossi Customer Service section) if you're interested in the background on that. Suffice it to say that Rossi Service was a dissappointment. Now I still need to fix this weapon so it will cycle reliably.

I'm hoping someone (Ranch Dog or others) can give me good advice, based on their previous surgical procedures on a Rossi model 92.

After coming back from the service center, Rossi still left me with a rifle that doesn't fully cycle. The cartridge nearly clears the cartridge guides but appears to be getting hung up about 1/2 -3/4 through the guides. There are some marks on my brass cases where the rim meets the cartridge guides (3 oclock and 9 oclock).

The cartridge carrier / lifter also seems to raise the cartridge a little later in the cycle than before I sent it off to them for service. They must have delayed how fast the cartridge rises. It seems to have improved the steep angle that the bullet was approaching the cylinder with, prior to service.

There is also a small, metal tab, at the edge of the chamber. It's in the 6 oclock position. I don't think it presents a hangup anymore but, I noticed that Rossi's customer service tried to reduce it by about 2/3 in length. It almost seems like a ramp but, I'm not sure if it was just a flaw or is truly supposed to be there? Their attempts to reduce this "tab" or ramp or whatever it is, left a ragged, sharp piece of metal.

So here are some pic's for your review. I probably need to grind or adjust the cartridge guides in some manner. I haven't taken those out before. Can you give me an Idea of what to look for and how to make the best adjustment. Thank's post script.

I have a few more pics but the overall size of my downloads is limiting what I can post at this point.


Almost clears to enter the chamber - getting hung up at the front of the guides
red highlight.jpg

This is how close it is to clearing. But she's hung up firm right here. Feels like something is flexing and or about to set off the primer if I force it any further.
IMG_9204.JPG


Then there is this ragged, metal tab. Is it supposed to be there. Should I mess with it. I don't think it is a problem at this point but might be a cleaning and or metal shaving, finger slicing monster down the road.
IMG_9192.JPG
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donhuff
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Re: Model 92 needs fixin

Post by donhuff »

Wyo,

I read over your post, and the other thread you have made. I see that your using 180 gr. hollow points right?

If so there should be nothing funny about the ammo causing the hang up, like a really wide nosed bullet. And the OAl should be within spec.

So that "tab" hanging out at the bottom of the chamber mouth is on all rossis. Some calibers have the two cuts in the chamber mouth bottom that forms your "tab". And other calibers do not have these cuts. Nobody on the planet knows why so no need to ponder why.

The cuts are there for the "wings" on the ejector to go into when the bolt is fully closed. Models that do not have the cuts, also do not have the long wings.

But anyway, I saw that you sent it back to rossi. So I'm guessing you are unsure of your ability to work on it yourself? If that is the case, we are going to have a hard time fixin it because the first thing you need to do is take it completely apart. There are several parts that need to be smoothed and polished so that the cartridge can slip and slide across them. It looks like your cartridge is hanging up on sharp edges and can not get up on top of the guides and level out. It HAS to do this before it can move forward. With it hung up like that, any force applied tends to try to push the rear of the cartridge DOWN, and that don't work, as you know. That "TAB" needs to have a ever so slight radius on it's edges where it contacts the case. And it also needs to be as slick and smooth as you can get it. Now I did not say REMOVE METAL with a file or grinder, just round the edges and smooth. 400 grit paper will do this, and follow up with polish on a buffing wheel.

Are you working the action SLOW and watching the cartridge as it moves about and hangs up? If so, then quit looking at it and cycle it faster and more vigorously, being sure to take the lever fully to the bottom of it's stroke. That is what raises the carrier to it's upper most position and locks it in place. It needs to be fully up as the bottom of the cartridge contacts it and this helps to get the cartridge up and level.
Don Huff

to bad those that know it all, cant do it all!
16" SS 92 357
20" BL 92 357
20" SS 92 44
20" BL 92 44
20" Bl 92 45C
20" Bl 92 454
SS Rio Grande 30-30
Bl Rio Grande 45-70
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btoran
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Re: Model 92 needs fixin

Post by btoran »

Agree with Don. If you prefer having someone work on the gun for you, send it back as they obviously didn't fix it the first time. If you're OK taking it apart, I recommend a DVD and ejector spring kit from steve's gunz. Many on the site have make remarkable changes to their guns by smoothing out the guts and the dvd is excellent for showing not only how to take it all apart and put it back together, but also what needs grinding and smoothing for really nice cycling. I didn't see your other thread, but am curious if it has this problem with all kinds of ammo.
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Re: Model 92 needs fixin

Post by Wyowind »

Btoran and don

Thanks for the replies. The only reason I sent it back to Rossi is that it's a new gun. I made the assumption that Rossi would stand behind their product Warranty and get it functioning well. The tech sent back a note that states their repairs were tested with 10 Federal JHP cartridges. I hate to think that this rifle will only function with a specific bullet. Even so, Hornady XTP bullets (the ones I load) are pretty benign, rounded hollow points without a sharp edge to hang up on the chamber. Not much different than the Federals.

The only real hang up that I see on my spent cases is at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions of the case rim. It seems like the cartridge guides are the main hang-up. If that is the situation, I'm not sure if the front of the guides need to be trimmed or the rear of the guides? Or is there a better way to get the rim up and through the guides without actually trimming them? Like I tried to show in the pics, this gun is V E R Y close to cycling reliably.

I took the gun apart for some minor smoothing before I sent it back to Rossi. It was pretty good until they performed their "repair" work on it. I'll need to go back through it again to do some clean up and more smoothing. However, I haven't taken out the cartridge guides before. Not sure how difficult (small parts and springs) it will be to get those guides out and back in the proper place afterwards ?
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btoran
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Re: Model 92 needs fixin

Post by btoran »

The cartridge guides are not hard to take out. one has no springs. The other has a small leaf spring that fits into a groove in the guide and goes back together easy. I didn't have any issues getting mine out or back in. Steve's video has specific instructions to round off a lip on one of the guides (left side i think) for better cycling. Before the action job my gun cycled well and I didn't have the problems you're having, but afterwards, it's really a different gun and I can cycle it with a single finger. It's hard to know if any one item or all of them (there are about 6 things to do) made the difference, but it sure makes a difference.
Bruce

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Re: Model 92 needs fixin

Post by Ranch Dog »

Spent the last two days bullet casting, all day long, so I'm a bit wore out when I come in. I looks like you have some good help. I'd go back and did what you did before. Start by breaking it down and cleaning it again. No telling what ended up inside the clockworks. I'd get it feeling like you want it without ammo going through it. In other words everything moving and no hang ups felt. Then start with a cartridge in the tube and take a look at every step in makes from tube upwards to make sure everything is taking place when it should.

The cartridge guides are going to need work but I would want to be sure something else isn't placing the cartridge in a bad position on the way to them.

The cartridge guides must be approached with a lot of care and the willingness to take the rifle apart and back numerous times. There is a tendency to think that they slots need to be relieved on the forward edge but in reality it is usually the rear edge that needs to be worked on as the rear of the case needs to come up sooner. I stopped a bit short on my 44 Mag, needs a bit more work but I'm glad I stopped. It is easy to go too far on the trimming and then it is too late.
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donhuff
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Re: Model 92 needs fixin

Post by donhuff »

Don't send it back again. They will only do the same thing to it like they did the first time. And may not do that if it will cycle those Federal test rounds that they used.

It looks like your are hanging on the front edge of the guides. While they CAN snag up there a little I bet that is not the real problem,(like RD sez) because the rim should already be up a bit before it ever gets to this point. The marks you see on the front of the rim are a result of trying to push the round forward, but the rear of the round did not come UP like it's suppose to do. And if it does not come up, forward force on the rim from the bolt, tries to push the rear of the round DOWN. That makes the bottom front of the round, hit that TAB (that need polishing) and that makes the nose of the bullet push UP, hard against the top of the cylinder. It's like trying to fold the cartridge, with the TAB poking it in the middle.

If you watch close, you will probably see that when the rear of the round goes forward and not up, it pushes the carrier down out of it's detent notch. This adds to the problem as the tip of the carrier needs to stay in the full up position, so that it keeps the cartridge bottom from contacting that TAB and causing it to become a fulcrum for the cartridge.

I would do a little file work on the ejector, and then polish it on a buffing wheel till it sparkles. A lighter ejector spring helps to by letting the ejector retract into the bolt, and this also gets the lever up a little too which helps with your leverage.

If you do not have a bench grinder with a buffing wheel, a dremel tool with buffing wheel does good to.

When you get your ejector out, let me know and I'll try to show you what it needs.
Don Huff

to bad those that know it all, cant do it all!
16" SS 92 357
20" BL 92 357
20" SS 92 44
20" BL 92 44
20" Bl 92 45C
20" Bl 92 454
SS Rio Grande 30-30
Bl Rio Grande 45-70
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Re: Model 92 needs fixin

Post by donhuff »

"Spent the last two days bullet casting, all day long, so I'm a bit wore out when I come in"

I've been doing the same thing RD. I cast all this morning, then painted, cut some checks and put them on. Then sized them all.

Not like I did a whole lot of bullets, only 3 or 4 hundred, but I rejected a lot of them and cast them over again. I'm trying to make some flawless bullets for accuracy testing and not my regular, as long as it'll get down the barrel, bullets.

I had to stop one time and go to the hardware store and get a roll of solder, cause I'm out of tin again. Boy what a difference 4 oz of tin will make when added to 10 pounds of wheel weights. I went from culling near 50%, to only 5 %. And the 5% were usually something I did wrong.
Don Huff

to bad those that know it all, cant do it all!
16" SS 92 357
20" BL 92 357
20" SS 92 44
20" BL 92 44
20" Bl 92 45C
20" Bl 92 454
SS Rio Grande 30-30
Bl Rio Grande 45-70
Wyowind
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Re: Model 92 needs fixin

Post by Wyowind »

Thanks everyone.

It's tempting to get a round file or jewlers file and hit the front edge of those cartridge guides. I'm deferring to the collective experience here since this is my first go at a lever gun.

It needs a good cleaning and slicking up again anyway so, I might as well start from the start, not jump in the middle like I tend to do. Time to take another good look at the spent brass to see if I missed something there.

When It's apart, i"ll post a pic of the ejector to see what, if any further suggestions you have. I assume the only way to lighten that ejector, without new springs, is to take a nib off the existing spring. I didn't consider the ejector would play much of a role in feeding ammo to to the cylinder.

First things first. Get it apart and post a pic. Thanks again.
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Re: Model 92 needs fixin

Post by donhuff »

Don't take a file to the guides YET. Breaking the sharp edges with some 400-600 sandpaper is really all that's needed, then a good polishing.

A rough sharp edged ejector can really hinder the back of the cartridge from popping up into position so that it can be moved forward into the chamber. And like RD said about the guides, the BACK EDGE is really the control on the guides. And we may end up trimming them a little. But for factory spec ammo it should not be necessary if everything else is working right.

Remember the ejector is actually the driving force that moves the cartridge forward. Of course the bolt is doing it too but the ejector is in front of the bolt and is what actually touches the cartridge all the way until the very last few thousandths of travel when the bolt completely closes and the ejector retracts into the bolt.

I use to think like you that the edges on the guides were digging in to the front of the rim, and making it stop. But now understand that this happens only if the rim has NOT popped up like it's suppose to do. Because the rear of the cartridge is moving forward and down instead of forward and up.
Don Huff

to bad those that know it all, cant do it all!
16" SS 92 357
20" BL 92 357
20" SS 92 44
20" BL 92 44
20" Bl 92 45C
20" Bl 92 454
SS Rio Grande 30-30
Bl Rio Grande 45-70
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