Semi Auto Calibers

[jimbtx1]

I've been wanting to get a semi auto for defense, etc....was wondering about the differences in recoil between 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 auto...I know the 9mm is mild but just wondered how the 40 and 45 compare to the 9mm...
I'm not a wuss, but I don't want something that gives you a sore wrist after a few rounds either...the 9mm seems a little bit of a light load according to some things I've read...I know it's mostly about placement, but I'm leaning toward more stopping power if the recoil is manageable, both from the adverse pounding and from recoil recovery in susequent shots placement...wanted some Expert opinions before I go any further...

RD, I saw where you said you shot a lot of semi auto rounds ...others please chime in too.
Any help appreciated...Jim

[phonejack]

Find some reputable people who have actually "had" to shoot. Ask what load they had at the time in their 9,10,45. Discount gel,water jug,wet phone book tests. I trust 45acp,but don't trust my advice because "this is the Internet"

[Ranch Dog]

RD, I saw where you said you shot a lot of semi auto rounds ...others please chime in too.
Any help appreciated...Jim

I'm always ready to talk about this stuff! I do shoot a lot of semi-auto cartridges every year.

Calculated recoil, what the gun experiences is easy relate. Felt recoil, what the individual experiences is very subjective.

When I started working on my cast bullet designs, recoil is something that I examine in depth. I do the math to understand what recoil energies the firearm has been designed to function within as recoil is what drives the semi-auto.

I used the Taurus TCP and Millennium Pro series for my "Test Mules" as they offered the best range of calibers within the same frames and they do not use polygonal barrels. Here is what the recoil numbers look like.

uploadfromtaptalk1354283465353.jpg

I did not design a bullet for the 40 S&W in that it is a high pressure cartridge but gas checks are no longer available. Any use of a plain base bullet with this cartridge is a compromise and you are better off with the 45 ACP.

You asked about recoil and it is a little tough for me to relate what I feel as I'm not really bothered by it, I just consider it in bullet design as recoil affects the function of the semi-auto.

I do shoot a lot of 9mm. For concealled carry, it is my 135-grain bullet. For training at Front Sight I must use factory ammo so my bullet choice is the 147-grain option. I was loosing hits on steel targets to 40 S&W and 45 ACP shooters, hits on the steel that did not tip the target. The switch to the heavier bullet cured that issue.

Posted via Tapatalk while hunting!

[akuser47]

Another consideration is the gun used the lighter weight can mean more bite or recoil some heft can be beneficial with larger calibers. I would never want a plastic fantastic 44 magnum that is for sure LOL. I love my glocks, but .45 is as big as I would go in plastic/light weight guns.

[Barry in IN]

I know the 9mm is mild...
...the 9mm seems a little bit of a light load according to some things I've read...

Some thoughts and points to ponder:

-"Mild" and "light" are relative terms. Any of those calibers are light and mild to a mostly-rifle shooter.

-I can look around and find reports of instant stops with the .22 or .25 auto, and find dismal failures with .45ACP, .44 Magnum, and can even think of one using .308 Winchester, all documented. Placement rules, but sometimes events happen however they are going to happen.

-I try to get to all the defensive shooting classes I can. Sometimes, a class will surprise me with info I didn't expect. The best example was the "Tactical Treatment of Gunshot Wounds" class, which I thought would be about how to patch up bullet wounds (thinking of range safety at our club mostly). It had that, but the instructor had some good info on bullet effects, having been an ER doc in the Philadelphia area for years and from having worked with Army medics, Navy Corpsmen, and Walter Reed. Such a person who is also a "gun guy" who asks a lot of hardware questions is a pretty good resource.
Naturally caliber choices came up a few times in the class, and he would just shake his head and say it didn't matter- not as long as the caliber was at least 9mm size through .45ACP or a little more. He said he sure never could tell you what caliber was used based on treating the wound or from interviewing witnesses and participants about the effect. He said that IF there was a difference, it was so small you couldn't measure it in real life shootings.

-I like to look at cartridge effectiveness as a football field. 100 yards, marked off, with .22 LR at one end and .50 BMG at the other. The 9mm, .40, and .45 are all within the first ten yards. The difference, if any, is a baby step apart.

-Recoil is different for everybody.
Personally, I don't like shooting the .40. To me, it has a "snappier" recoil than either 9mm or .45, and I'd much rather shoot either. That may not make sense when you compare them on paper, but I know of a lot of people who feel the same way.
I have two HK P7 pistols. If you aren't familiar with them, it uses an odd action that is locked by tapping gas pressure (not unlocked that way like many rifles, but held closed that way). Most P7s are 9mm. I find it to be the softest shooting 9mm I've tried. Being an odd gun, it draws a crowd at the range, so I've let quite a few people shoot it, and they usually say something similar about the lack of recoil. But twice now, people have shot it and commented on how hard he recoil was. Why the difference? I have no idea.

-The argument is often "Bigger Bullets" or "More Bullets", which usually comes down to 9mm vs .45CP with the .40 offered up as a compromise. To be honest, I see excellent points both ways.
While I am convinced I can count on little to no difference from 9mm to .45, I would like that little bit if I can get it. Why wouldn't I? I know steel plates aren't bodies, but it's hard to be a Safety Officer at an IDPA match running people through stages all day and watching those plate drop faster from .45 hits every single time and not think about it.
Then I see plenty of points to having more bullets. It's easy to say I'll just throw a couple of big .45 slugs into the guy, or to do it on the cardboard bad guy at the range, but it's different should I have a kid screaming in my ear and pulling on one arm, me dragging her back, while the bad guy is ducking and weaving in and around a car/wall/tree/post/whatever. I might only get a shot at a toe here, and an elbow there, until something good opens up to shoot. I might want every round I can get.

I got that thought from this...
One of my favorite instructors is Louis Awerbuck. He likes to make it clear that if we have to use our gun, it won't be at a nice flat upright stationary target at the range. It's going to be a madman who is charging at you while you might only get a couple of glimpses of him if you are lucky. He tells a story to illustrate this, about a Highway Patrolman (Oklahoma maybe?) who almost literally ran into a man kidnapping his ex-wife at a truck stop. A gunfight erupts, and the officer fires 16 rounds from his 9mm, finally stopping the kidnapper as the slide locked back. Louis tells the story so you think the officer can't shoot worth a darn. Then he tells the rest. He hit with something like 13 out of 16 rounds, but every shot he had except the last one were not very good targets, but they were all he had. They shot while running in and around parked trucks. It was like the example I just used, in that he had a view of the toe of his shoe by a tire, then his elbow sticking out somewhere else, or a shot into a truck mirror that sent glass into the bad guy's eyes. He shot what he had until something better came into view, and that didn't happen until shot #16.
You never know.

-I have more .44s and .45s than anything. I have had three Gunsite classes, which is the world of .45ACP. I have every book Jeff Cooper ever wrote, including a sports car book from 50 years ago. I have lots of .45 ACP brass, and find cast bullets a lot easier to load in .45ACP than 9mm. I love the 1911, and have more 1911s than any other handgun.
But I carry a 9mm most of the time.
I usually carry one of three handguns for protection, plus a backup (guns break). Two of the three "main guns" and the backup are 9mm.
Why? Besides reading all I can, I talk to everyone I can, from LE officers in classes to doctors my wife knows (she's a pharmacist) and they can't see much difference, if any, from 9mm through .45. If it's that close, then I'll carry the one that holds more ammo, and is cheaper to shoot so I'll practice more.

Just my opinion.
I do still waffle back and forth carrying a .45 for a while, then a 9mm for a while, then switching again. But the 9mm's carry time increased more and more until it's probably 10 to 1 I'll have a 9mm on any given day.

[jimbtx1]

Thanks for the responses...I expected no less than a lot of factual info, albeit it such a subjective topic...
The 40 S&W is out...and, at least at this point, the 9mm is in...it gets down to one tradeoff versus another as a personal preference, as I knew, but the details I now have, lean me heavier to the 9mm for my situation, with varying bullet selection...
Ranch Dog, would you give me an estimation/best guess, etc. on what the 9mm numbers in your chart would probably look like on the 147 gr. bullet please...

[Ranch Dog]

Sure, I have all the info handy. Here is the typical 115-grain load...



the 124-grain load...



and the 147-grain load.



For grins, my 135-grain bullet at standard pressures...



...and +P.

[Ranch Dog]

Find some reputable people who have actually "had" to shoot. Ask what load they had at the time in their 9,10,45. Discount gel,water jug,wet phone book tests. I trust 45acp,but don't trust my advice because "this is the Internet"

I've done water jug tests on the 25 ACP, 32 ACP, 380 Auto, 9mm Luger, 9mm Makrov, and 45 ACP. In the comparisons I shoot JRN, JHP, a premium bullet like the Gold Dot, FTX, or XTP, and cast lead. The cast bullet trumps all for straight line penetration. The premium bullets are very unpredictable, most exploding in the first few jugs and exiting out the side.

CC shooters worry about adequate penetration but there is such a thing as too much penetration, especially if means killing or wounding a bystander. I don't understand how one cartridge can cover all situations. What you carry should be driven by the environment in which you carry it. If I carry in town running errands it is one cartridge or if I carry while traveling the roads of South Texas, it is another. If I am hunting on the border it is something big that will cut big holes without regard to the shoot through. For me, it runs from the 25 ACP to the 44 Mag or 45 Colt. I train with all of them.

[jimbtx1]

Thanks RD... nothing like having the real facts...Jim

[Rooster59]

I like the 9mm for concealment and the 45 for absolute authority. The 40 is a compromise that doesn't suit me.

Jeff