Your Experience With Tough Alloys?

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Re: Your Experience With Tough Alloys?

Post by Ranch Dog »

Just finished downloading the shot strings from my chronograph so I thought I would post the numnies...

34.6-grains of Lil' Gun, 49.7 KPSI, 2203 FPS, 3102 FPE
35.1-grains of Lil' Gun, 56.1 KPSI, 2211 FPS, 3126 FPE

Will get some bullets cast up to continue the work beyond these levels...
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Re: Your Experience With Tough Alloys?

Post by pricedo »

Ranch Dog wrote:Just finished downloading the shot strings from my chronograph so I thought I would post the numnies...

34.6-grains of Lil' Gun, 49.7 KPSI, 2203 FPS, 3102 FPE
35.1-grains of Lil' Gun, 56.1 KPSI, 2211 FPS, 3126 FPE

Will get some bullets cast up to continue the work beyond these levels...
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NO NEED TO FEAR......WHEN RD & HIS TRUSTY 454 ARE NEAR

3126 FPE !....that's not far off 450 Marlin energy levels.
After how many shots do you go in for the shoulder ball joint replacement :?: :mrgreen:
What's next :?: ...... a RD load for elephants :?:
That Lil' Gun is THE powder that makes the 454 Casull all that it can be. :mrgreen:

My loads are 335 grain hard cast (BH 25) lead bullet @ 1930 fps (2770 ft-lbs ME).
That's enough to kill the animal in front of the gun without crippling the old man behind the gun. +guns


** Hows the rifle holding up to those suped-up loads? Is everything still nice & tight? Extraction still smooth or is it getting a little sticky?
How about case head stretch? No loose primers yet? Do the cases need lots of trimming with the high pressure loads? The cases are the weak link in the chain & will ruptureImage before the action does.
You obviously got a gun with close chamber tolerances or it would have been in pieces by now.
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Re: Your Experience With Tough Alloys?

Post by Ranch Dog »

pricedo wrote:Hows the rifle holding up to those suped-up loads? Is everything still nice & tight? Extraction still smooth or is it getting a little sticky?
These are not maximum loads. This work is well within the cartridge design specification. Because of the stock design, with it's cheek piece and pad, there is no issue shooting this rifle. Cases slipping in and out, primers still have their radius edge, nothing is out of place. Rossi cut this chamber to the Casull spec and by such it is supposed to have a tight tolerance to the case spec. I use of Starline brass for everything unless they don't form it and it is all top notch and to spec.

Here is how the actual performance of my 45 Colt bullet in the Casull compares to the projected performance of my 330-grain Casull bullet, along with the actual performance of my three bullets in my RG4570 motoring along at only 35.0 KPSI.
R92_RG4570_FPE.jpg
R92_RG4570_Thornily.jpg
R92_RG4570_Penetration.jpg
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Re: Your Experience With Tough Alloys?

Post by pricedo »

It's amazing that a relatively small, stubby cartridge like the 454 Casull can be the ballistic equal of a physically much bigger cartridge like the 45-70.
It's all about maximizing the area under the time pressure curve without reaching the rupture pressure of either the chamber or the brass case.
Those muzzle energies you have been achieving are amazing & still no end in sight.
This is a thread that I'll be following very closely.
CONJECTURE: If a person were to increase the length of the 92/454s chamber a little to accommodate the 460 S&W cartridge so more of slower burning powders could be used the results could be even more amazing. :?:
The 460 S&W is just a "magnumized" 454 Casull which in turn is a "magnumized" 45LC.
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Re: Your Experience With Tough Alloys?

Post by Model 52 »

pricedo wrote:It's amazing that a relatively small, stubby cartridge like the 454 Casull can be the ballistic equal of a physically much bigger cartridge like the 45-70.
It's all about maximizing the area under the time pressure curve without reaching the rupture pressure of either the chamber or the brass case.
Those muzzle energies you have been achieving are amazing & still no end in sight.
This is a thread that I'll be following very closely.
CONJECTURE: If a person were to increase the length of the 92/454s chamber a little to accommodate the 460 S&W cartridge so more of slower burning powders could be used the results could be even more amazing. :?:
The 460 S&W is just a "magnumized" 454 Casull which in turn is a "magnumized" 45LC.
The .460 case is 1.800 long compared to 1.380 for the .454 and 1.285 for the .45 Colt. You'd have to stretch the receiver and the bolt to get enough clearance for it to feed from the magazine. That longer bolt and longer receiver would then probably have to be beefed up to provide the same level of strength as the Model 92 currently has.

Second, with powder capacities in 40-48 grain range with some of the slower powders, you may need more bore length to use it efficiently and maintain that long flat pressure curve long enough to burn the powder, although the large bore and consequent high volume per inch ratio sure helps and might make it a non issue.
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Re: Your Experience With Tough Alloys?

Post by Ranch Dog »

pricedo wrote:It's amazing that a relatively small, stubby cartridge like the 454 Casull can be the ballistic equal of a physically much bigger cartridge like the 45-70.
Yes, it is as compared to the lighter projectiles in use with the 45-70. It compares directly to my RG4570 with the load for the 300-grain bullet, that makes it an apples to apples look as even the rifles weigh the same. It takes 63 grains of powder to push the 45-70 and only 35 grains for the Casull! A 250 count box of 45-70 brass is $116 and the same count box of Casull brass is $99. With the cost of components nowadays this is not something to ignore. It looks like the cost of the R92 454 has dropped as well from the $675 I paid and it seems that Rossi is keeping them coming. In that last month, I've seen them sold on GunBroker as low as $500 but the lowest today is $525. That tells me I could get one through my FFL for about $490. My RG4570 was $462 but that was when they first came out, might be a better price now.

I don't live with the big bears and doubt I ever will but I would still feel better with the RG4570 and the 425-grain bullet if I did but the 454 Casull remains no slouch and hot on the 45-70's heels.
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Re: Your Experience With Tough Alloys?

Post by Arktikos »

Ranch Dog wrote:

I don't live with the big bears and doubt I ever will but I would still feel better with the RG4570 and the 425-grain bullet if I did but the 454 Casull remains no slouch and hot on the 45-70's heels.
My 454 Casull won't be replacing my 45/70 but I am looking forward to seeing its potential with heavier lead, maybe 350 gr hard cast which should at 1500 fps or so stop a bear at close range.


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Re: Your Experience With Tough Alloys?

Post by pricedo »

The Achilles Heel of the 454 is the constraint imposed on bullet size VS case capacity to hold enough powder to move the bullet at an effective velocity by the relatively short COAL allowed both by the design of the 92 action and the cartridge itself.
Your choices of bullet weight and bullet shape and the kind and amount of powder must result in a cartridge that will cycle within the "short stroke" of the rifle's action and remain within the design pressure limits of the caliber.
I would say that a 350 grain hard cast lead bullet is the practical maximum weight of lead bullet to be loaded in a 454 Casull hunting/protection round for large dangerous animals that will allow for sufficient powder to be loaded into the case to give it the required velocity to be effective and yet stay under the SAAMI maximum pressure limit.
My own choice is a 335 grain gas checked hard cast lead flat nose (BH 25) @ 1930 fps for a ME of 2770 ft-lbs.
You could move a lighter bullet faster or a heavier bullet slower but I think a 325 - 375 grain lead bullet is optimum for the standard (SAAMI max) length 454 Casull round.
The lighter bullet limit is what "caps" the 454 Casull as a less effective great bear cartridge than the 45-70.
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Re: Your Experience With Tough Alloys?

Post by Ranch Dog »

Arktikos wrote:My 454 Casull won't be replacing my 45/70 but I am looking forward to seeing its potential with heavier lead, maybe 350 gr hard cast which should at 1500 fps or so stop a bear at close range.
When I ran the numbers, my calculations indicated that approximately 330-grains would be optimum for velocity, energy, and penetration. I have started looking at 350-grains this morning as I would like to add a lube groove. Doing that would increase my lube volume by 20%+ and the additional seal would be well spent considering the pressure generated with this cartridge.

pricedo's comments are on target, as moving beyond 330-grains and this cartridge runs out of steam with the limited case capacity. Still, the additional lube groove is really bugging me.
454Casull_bullets_FPE.jpg
454Casull_bullets_Thornily.jpg
454Casull_bullets_Penetration.jpg
One thing I would want to be sure of before I go any further with this new consideration is the ability of the rifle to chamber the round. The additional bullet length will increase case bulge and I will check that out in a bit.
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Re: Your Experience With Tough Alloys?

Post by Arktikos »

I have some 325 gr Beartooth gc that have been sitting on the shelf since they wouldn't feed in the longer coal crimp groove in my 45 colt Marlin so I think I'll order some 454 Casull brass when I get home tomorrow and try those out first. They are rnfp design so might not give the feeding trouble the WFN's could.

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