Hard cast bullets at high velocity on deer?

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Hard cast bullets at high velocity on deer?

Postby cdmajesty » 27 Nov 2017 16

I am getting a 454 Casull, 20" model 92 Rossi. I think I want a load (primarily for deer) that shoots an lfn .32 or so meplat bullet at 2000 fps or so. My question is: have you shot deer with hard bullets (20+ bhn) at closer range where impact velocities are around 1600 fps or faster? Was there still a good wound channel with a good blood trail, or did the bullet just poke a hole due to being "too fast" for the given conditions? I'm wondering what people's experiences are with this. Thanks!
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Re: Hard cast bullets at high velocity on deer?

Postby GRV01 » 27 Nov 2017 17

Off topic but where/when did you find a 454 Rossi?

*turning green*

In all seriousness though, i really hope Taurus expands the line again but it seems theyve gotta pull their heads out first
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Re: Hard cast bullets at high velocity on deer?

Postby Ranch Dog » 27 Nov 2017 18

How about I use some pictures. Here is the terminal ballistics of my deer hunting load with a bullet that was 19 to 21 BHN.

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I do think the "Permanent Wound Channel" figures are very accurate, this is the hole that the cookie cutter (meplat) cuts. Look at all the figures for 125 yards.

The first doe I shot with the rifle was at 125-yards, I took a "double lung" shot just to see how the bullet/cartridge combination would perform. The doe split the scene just like any lung shot deer would and entered some very heavy brush. She exited the brush on a sendero, about 35 yards, passing an oak tree. look at the blood being sprayed against the trunk of the tree.

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She is laying just past the tree in the grass.
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Re: Hard cast bullets at high velocity on deer?

Postby cdmajesty » 27 Nov 2017 19

Thanks for sharing. I do realize that you probably shoot a lot more hogs than deer. It does appear that the bullet was sub 1500 fps on impact. That blood trail/spray is amazing!

I've listened to other people's woeful experiences with 45+ caliber big meplat bullets that are hard when impact velocities are too high. They say that the hard bullet perhaps doesn't deform enough at those speeds (on deer, not something tougher) to make the kind of wound channels that would otherwise be predicted.

I like a softish bullet nose for deer sized game, but at Casull pressures, that may be tricky. If I knew that a hard bullet at strike velocities over 1600 fps would get the job done on Minnesota white tail, it would give me much peace of mind.
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Re: Hard cast bullets at high velocity on deer?

Postby cdmajesty » 27 Nov 2017 19

Found it on armslist
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Re: Hard cast bullets at high velocity on deer?

Postby Ranch Dog » 27 Nov 2017 20

cdmajesty wrote:I've listened to other people's woeful experiences with 45+ caliber big meplat bullets that are hard when impact velocities are too high. They say that the hard bullet perhaps doesn't deform enough at those speeds (on deer, not something tougher) to make the kind of wound channels that would otherwise be predicted.

I don't want my bullet to deform at any speed, not one bit of mushroom. I want the 72% meplat to do its job and cut a 1" hole completely through the animal. Here is a big hog I killed with the 45 Colt at 167-yards. Notice the 1" hole that is the entry wound, and the exit hole was as large.

Image

I think that with all the critters that I've killed with cast bullets, I've only recovered three bullets.

Here is one, my 275-grain 444 Marlin bullet. It is 21 BHN, still is. It left the muzzle of my 444T at 2400 FPS.

Image

I shot this bull, about 700 lbs, at 125 yards. I actually shot it twice. You can see the first shot on the point of the shoulder, it was quartering to me, and the bullet broke its shoulder and exited the last rib opposite side. 1" hole completely through it. The bull went down with the first shot, but after about 60 seconds it suddenly went airborne. It somehow launched off its hind legs heading straight away from me. I shot it on the point of the tail, and it cut down the backbone like a meat bandsaw. When it left the back, it went in through the neck, but the thick hide contained the bullet. When skinned, we didn't need to skin the neck as the bullet has pulled the all the skin completely loose. The bull came down from its leap dead. It was dead with the first shot; it just didn't know it.

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The bullet never mushroomed, it just eroded impacting all the bone. A bullet that mushroomed any would not have made it very far.
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Re: Hard cast bullets at high velocity on deer?

Postby cdmajesty » 27 Nov 2017 21

Michael, thanks for the great pics and description! I think your 444t is a great example of what I'm trying to figure out. With that high 2400 fps muzzle velocity, I'm sure you've killed deer with that rifle under 150 yards, right? Were those results really good, as well? Jon
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Re: Hard cast bullets at high velocity on deer?

Postby Ranch Dog » 28 Nov 2017 06

cdmajesty wrote:Michael, thanks for the great pics and description! I think your 444t is a great example of what I'm trying to figure out. With that high 2400 fps muzzle velocity, I'm sure you've killed deer with that rifle under 150 yards, right? Were those results really good, as well? Jon


Yeah, I've killed deer inside 30 yards and out to 290 yards, and they are all the same; a huge hole cut through them by the meplat. Deer are easy to kill with meplat and velocity.

I started my cast bullet hunting with the Lyman manual, soft bullets, and reduced pressure loads using the pistol powders recommended in the Lyman manual. My success was dismal, and my ranch dog was disappointed in my performance because all the trails had no end. After losing a third hog in as many mornings at bowhunting ranges, I had not recovered one at this point, I came home and threw the Lyman book away and started reading the writings and communicated with Randy Garrett, Veral Smith, Marshall Stanton, and Pete Thornily. Their thoughts heavily influenced my bullet design ideas, and I shot the Beartooth bullets while I waited for Lee to cut my first four designs.

Back to the 454 Casull. With lead, you will never be able to reach the full pressure level of the rifle. I'm using a 60/40 (linotype/wheel weight) alloyed bullet with a BHN of 29 but it seems to be good only up to the 52-55K PSI level. It is a 330-grain bullet, here are the pressures vs. velocities.

42K - 1810 FPS
52K - 1900
62K - 1975

I think the advantage of the 454 Casull over the 45 Colt, for a cast bullet shooter, is you gain a bit more chamber to toss a slightly heavier bullet down range at about the same or slightly higher velocity.
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Re: Hard cast bullets at high velocity on deer?

Postby GRV01 » 28 Nov 2017 08

Ranch Dog wrote:
Back to the 454 Casull. With lead, you will never be able to reach the full pressure level of the rifle. I'm using a 60/40 (linotype/wheel weight) alloyed bullet with a BHN of 29 but it seems to be good only up to the 52-55K PSI level. It is a 330-grain bullet, here are the pressures vs. velocities.

42K - 1810 FPS
52K - 1900
62K - 1975

I think the advantage of the 454 Casull over the 45 Colt, for a cast bullet shooter, is you gain a bit more chamber to toss a slightly heavier bullet down range at about the same or slightly higher velocity.


Interesting, so in your estimation what would be appropriate pressures for a commercially purchased cast lead bullet of BHN 16-18 -- 40k? 50k? And what kind of consequences are we talking about here say if, in your example, you pushed your that bullet higher to 60k or what have you? Just gas cutting? Deformation? Instability downrange?

Thanks
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Re: Hard cast bullets at high velocity on deer?

Postby cdmajesty » 28 Nov 2017 10

Michael, thanks again for taking the time and your thoughtful response. I plan to hopefully run this around 50K, but it sounds like I probably won't reach that.

Also wondering how lead bullets in the 260-280 grain range will respond to slow powders like lilgun/H110? My past experience is that too light of a lead bullet for given caliber and H110, at least, doesn't seem to propel the bullet to the velocities I expected. This was in a .45 Colt revolver, where the 300+ grain bullet worked much better at utilizing that powder.

I have a pile of Lilgun on hand.
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