44 special load in 44 mag case

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Re: 44 special load in 44 mag case

Postby donhuff » 02 Jan 2018 09

GasGuzzler wrote:Nope. Opposite a couple times though. Squibs because it won't meter in an Auto Disk Pro, won't meter in a Uniflow, dirty, inaccurate.



Won't meter??? I have been using a Uniflo and Unique since 1975. Always metered ok for me. I never go below 5.0 grains of unique though as with it being bigger flakes, it does not do well metering such a small amount. Power pistol, bullseye,HP38, or ball powders get the nod for low charge weights.

Dirty? well yes, I cannot deny that. BUT there are a few reasons for that besides the makeup of the powder, that tends to make it a lot worse.
Most of the time Unique is loaded in a round at less than max pressures. Because it is a "mid range powder" we tend to load it down more, I know that I do. So at this reduced pressure level it will definitely make more soot. Like almost every other powder out there.
ALSO, the sooting problem is compounded because of the lube on the bullets. The grease makes the soot stick to everything it touches.This was brought back to me over the holidays cause one of my grandsons was in town and his dad and I wanted to take him shooting. I had a box full of 38 specials that I had loaded years ago before I started powder coating my bullets. 3.5 gr of bullseye and a 160 round nose so they were nice mild loads for someone that had never shot a rifle before. Of course, we were shooting the R92, along with a blackhawk. After we all had shot a few cylinders full through the ruger, the gun and our hands were covered in sticky soot. With the powder coated slugs, you still get the same amount of soot, but it doesn't stick to you or the gun, and will blow or wipe right off. And all that SMOKE OMG i had forgotten about the smoke. It was like shooting a black powder gun "almost".
BTW the kid loved the 92 better than the other guns we shot. We were shooting a remington model 12 22 rem special, r92 357, 357 blackhawk, 22 blackhawk, and RioGrande 45-70. My son really liked the 45-70 and was amazed at how easy it was to hit rocks at the 100 yard mark. Grandson liked the 92 and light load but soon wanted to try some of "those loud ones" like we were shooting. 13.5 grs 2400 and a 173 grain 358429 bullet. He shot several through the 92 then wanted to try one in the ruger, he ended up emptying the whole cylinder.

INACCURATE ???..........no comment
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Re: 44 special load in 44 mag case

Postby GasGuzzler » 03 Jan 2018 06

Yes, won't meter. Feels like there's cornflakes in it.

Lube theory doesn't work in my case as all the loads I had trouble with were plated or jacketed.

I am an OK shot except with a short barrel and mild .38 or 9mm loads that use Unique. Your loaded down theory sounds spot on. I'll be using the Auto Disc for all Unique loads and I will not load them down at all from now on.

Kind of a moot point now as I don't load .38s hardly ever, Bullseye is way better for 9mm for me, and if I use Unique for 45ACP it will be on the turret using the Auto Disc.
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Re: 44 special load in 44 mag case

Postby donhuff » 03 Jan 2018 08

I wish that I could send you a little 800X to "try" to meter. I have seen some corn flakes that were actually smaller than that powder. It would make you really appreciate how easy unique is to meter, comparatively speaking of course.

I take it you do not like any off the "Dot" powders then as they all use that same flake size. I don't know about Herco and some of the others as I have never tried them. I do see that American is claimed to be super clean burning. That might be a good one to try.

See but when you load Unique "up", you get into a place where it's like WHY! There are better powders to fill that spot. 2400 loaded down a little does not seem to be nearly as dirty as unique. But the one I have been using a lot of lately is Power Pistol, and especially in the auto pistol calibers. It has small flakes like bullseye, mixed in with small balls like 2400, so it meters very well. And it's not nearly as dirty burning as most powders. But you have a big flash and boom cause it doesn't have a flash suppressor, (so they say). I have been using a good bit of HP38 lately too and it doesn't seem to be as dirty as unique, and works good in the auto pistol cases.

It looks like with powder, as with most everything in life, we have to put up with or compromise a little, to get what we want. I thought when I bought my first pound of PowerPistol that I had found that perfect "compromise" powder. It metered great, had a wide load range that it performs well in, I can live with the flash as I don't normally shoot at night, and the boom doesn't bother me cause THAT'S WHAT GUNS DO!
But the accuracy thing got me. I just cannot find a load using PP that is as accurate as my unique loads in 41 mag 44 mag, and 45 colt. I thought that if I loaded the PP to the exact same velocity, that I would be close on accuracy. Boy was I wrong. The PP loads were not even close, and I tried going up and down a little, but had no success.
It seems that some powders make good accuracy when teamed with certain bullets, at certain velocity levels. Unique along with the Keith SWCs and right around 1000fps works good in the above calibers, and the gun they are shot in seems to have the least affect on their accuracy.
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Re: 44 special load in 44 mag case

Postby Ohio357MagFan » 03 Jan 2018 13

Ranch Dog wrote:
Ohio357MagFan wrote:I've deep seated the bullets in 357 mag cases and 44 magnum cases to match the same overall length as they would be IF loaded in 38 special brass or 44 special brass AND use the powder charge for 38 special and 44 special, that way you get the same powder capacity but avoid the carbon ring in your carbine or revolver. The trick to make this work is you need to get a taper crimp die and it looks funny with the bullet seated that deep and obviously you can't crimp in the crimp groove but what you do is use the taper crimp die and give it a light taper crimp OVER the bullet shoulder. Be aware you will need to use these rounds only in single shot mode in the carbine BUT in revolvers they work GREAT

You are really not achieving anything other than increasing the stated pressure of the loads because of the deep seating (neck tension).

I ran this through QuickLoad using my 38 Spl load for my Rossi 351, and then deep seating the bullet to maintain the Spl COAL in a Mag case. This change bumped the pressure 4,000 PSI.



Wow, 4000 PSI, that much??? I've been doing this practice for a long time, I suppouse the pressure increase isn't the end of the world because Im shooting these rounds in the firearms chambered in the magnum cartridges, so 4000 PSI wouldn't be really bad to them, but I'm suprised it's that much. As far as the advantage, there's no carbon ring like you get when firing the shorter special case in the magnum chamber
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Re: 44 special load in 44 mag case

Postby Ranch Dog » 03 Jan 2018 20

It's the additional neck tension from the deep seating that generates the additional pressure. The only adverse effect I can imagine, given the setup, is maybe the additional pressure causing a plain base bullet with a low BHN to fail.
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Re: 44 special load in 44 mag case

Postby Archer » 03 Jan 2018 22

~850 FPS with a 225-230 grain plated or jacketed FN or RN or HP bullet in .45 ACP using Unique works pretty darned well for me. I get pretty good results out of 200 grain LSWCs in .45 as well although I'm likely to use Bullseye there since I've got half a keg of it. I've been using the Bullseye in smaller caliber rounds like 9mm as well. I hadn't intended on replacing the Bullseye although since it's been working out with 9mm I might just keep it on hand for that.

The 1000 FPS LSWC 240 grain in .44 Mag is one I've done as well and several buddies suggested it to me a decade or more ago. I like 2400 for warm .44 Mag and H110 for warm/hot .44 and .357.

I'm using Power Pistol for Jacketed .38 SP HP loads. I haven't loaded and fired enough of them to comment on how its going to work out however. The data indicates an increase in V for the same pressures.

I may end up having to get yet another powder to load 10mm. So far that gun is liking warm loads a lot better than 40 Short & Weak levels.
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Re: 44 special load in 44 mag case

Postby Ohio357MagFan » 03 Jan 2018 22

Ranch Dog,

Generally speaking, what do you think 4000 psi is equal to in powder charge reduction then, like .2 grain? Like for example one of my classic 38 special loads I have shot for eons in 357 magnums is 5 grains of Unique with a cast 158 LSWC, overall length comes out to 1.470 when you seat it in 38 special brass to crimp in the crimp groove, well if you try that in 357 mag brass the overall length is 1.590 so I push them deeper to be 1.470 in 357 mag brass and then use a taper crimp die to lightly taper crimp the bullet over the forward shoulder (actually this holds the bullet in very well and its more gentle on the brass the roll crimp in the crimp groove). I'm just estimating that if I reduced that powder charge to like 4.7 grains unique that it would produce about the same pressure then
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Re: 44 special load in 44 mag case

Postby Ranch Dog » 04 Jan 2018 08

Ohio357MagFan wrote:Ranch Dog,

Generally speaking, what do you think 4000 psi is equal to in powder charge reduction then, like .2 grain

I wouldn't have a rule of thumb. Pistol powders a very volatile.
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Re: 44 special load in 44 mag case

Postby Archer » 05 Jan 2018 00

Ranch Dog wrote:
Ohio357MagFan wrote:Ranch Dog,

Generally speaking, what do you think 4000 psi is equal to in powder charge reduction then, like .2 grain

I wouldn't have a rule of thumb. Pistol powders a very volatile.


^THIS^

A chemical combustion reaction can be greatly accelerated by increased pressure and that's going to be highly dependent on tiny volume changes, affected by temperature and dependent on the amount of powder present in the volume taking place in the reaction. EACH powder is likely to act differently and have different triggering pressure points.
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Re: 44 special load in 44 mag case

Postby Mad Trapper » 20 Feb 2018 14

So, let me ask this question,
Lets say I have a 44 special case and a 44 russian case.
Both sized identically, except for length of course.
The same bullet loaded in both, same neck tension,bullet depth,etc.
I can use less powder in the 44 russian but still maintain the same power, pressure and veloicity of the 44 special which holds slightly more powder? because the 44 russian is burning powder in a smaller case space which will create slightly higher pressures.
I have been thinking of making up small game loads using 44 russian brass, so I wont confuse them with magnum and special cases, using just enough bullseye powder to take a rabbit or squirrel.
And be able to recover my bullet, rd ball, wadcutter,etc.
44 russian would have to be sharps loaded into a rossi 92, turn it into a nice little squirrel rifle.
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