Redding Dual Ring Carbine Dies

[Ohio357MagFan]

Anybody use the new Redding Dual Ring sizing dies for straightwall pistol cartridges? Redding claims they will make your brass last a lot longer because they have two carbine sizing rings, the bottom ring sizes the brass less and the top ring sizes the brass tighter for bullet retention. They claim the standard one ring reszing carbide dies put extra stress on the brass because the one ring resizes the case all the same amount and you don't need to size the bottom of the case as much.

[barracudadave67]

I use Lee dies excluseivly, I have no trouble with any of them. I get very long life out of my straight wall carts.
I think some of them type of dies, put out by some reloading companies, are more or less answers to problems that don't exist.
One type of stand alone die that is not a gimmick is the Lee factory crimp die. Since I started using them, I have not wrecked any shells when loading.
barracudadave67

[Ohio357MagFan]

Barracuda,

From what I'm reading, these new dies mimic the type of sizing from non carbide straight wall handgun sizing dies. The carbide dies have only been around since about the 80s, before that everybody used non carbide dies for straightwall pistol case resizing and needed to lube pistol cases just like rifle cases. The carbide dies have a ring that sizes the entire case down to the same diameter, whereas the non carbide dies have a bit of a taper on straightwall cartridges, they size the bottom a little less, so overall I think there is truth that the brass gets worked less, I think this might eliminate case separations.

I hope someone chimes in who used to use non carbide dies for resizing pistol rounds back in the day, was there an advantage to the cases lasting longer and being more accurate.
'

[Archer]

IMO any offset in the cases lasting longer is more than offset by the need to lubricate the cases and get the lubricant off them after sizing. I don't particularly mind that so much with .45-70 but I rarely load more than 60 rounds of that at one time and I expect .444 Marlin will be much the same when I'm loading that.

The fact of the matter is that carbide dies DO size to the smaller/smallest diameter of the SAAMI spec.
Most straight walled cases are not really straight. The carbide sizing ring CAN contain some slight taper but generally the cartridge is several times too long for the any taper on the sizing ring to make a difference AND generally that taper is a matter of a couple thousandths of an inch or so.

I won't say the Redding die is crap but I will say there is a point where good enough is good enough and to borrow the quote from Sergey Georgiyevich Gorshkov 'Better is the enemy of good enough'.

[Ohio357MagFan]

Just an update, I got an old school 357 mag steel size/decap die from a guy that said he will never use it again. Redding claims the Dual Ring carbide die mimics the same way the steel dies size cases (with slight taper) but with the convenience of carbide non lubing. I was really curious about the advantages to this die so just had to try a steel sizing die to see the difference. I sized some cases today with the Non-Carbide steel die and I gotta say they really do have a bit of a taper!! It makes for a better looking round. As far as making the cases last longer, I will post an update. I do believe that either a steel sizing die OR the Redding dual ring carbide die (both do same thing) should really help shooters of .45 colt because of the oversize SAAMI 45 colt chambers- and I am basing that off two things. First, I read a bunch of reviews on this new redding die and the 45 colt shooters in particular say it's a Godsend and helps cases last longer with the oversize 45 colt chambers, and also when researching the advantages of sizing with steel dies I discovered there was an article in Handloader magazine a while ago that said the .45 colt benefits greatly from being sized with steel Non-Carbide dies because of those dies sizing the brass with taper instead of the same amount from top to bottom.

Oh and in the revolver it feels like the rounds made from the brass sized in the steel die to fit more snug in the chambers then the cases sized with carbide dies.

[Ohio3Wheels]

<snip> First, I read a bunch of reviews on this new redding die and the 45 colt shooters in particular say it's a Godsend and helps cases last longer with the oversize 45 colt chambers, and also when researching the advantages of sizing with steel dies I discovered there was an article in Handloader magazine a while ago that said the .45 colt benefits greatly from being sized with steel Non-Carbide dies because of those dies sizing the brass with taper instead of the same amount from top to bottom.

Oh and in the revolver it feels like the rounds made from the brass sized in the steel die to fit more snug in the chambers then the cases sized with carbide dies.

If you have cases from and oversized (SAMI Max) chamber and you size them in a SAMI minimum or close sizing die you're doing considerable work on the brass and I would think shortening case life rather than lengthening it. On the other hand if you have multiple 45 Colt arms (or any other straight wall) you almost have to go this route to insure that the ammo will load in all of them. You need to return the cases to a certain minimum diameter for it to grip the bullet and to chamber and each individual set of dies and the guns that go with it are going to generate a certain case life. Some variation depending on loading and case brand. I use carbide dies for 45ACP and 380ACP and have yet to throw away a case from over work and some of the 45 brass is coming up on 15 loads of close if not slightly over hard ball. The 380 is still to new to tell. my 45 Colt ammo is loaded with a set of Hornady New Dimension nitrided dies, that need a little lube (Imperial sizing wax) and get a quick trip in corn cob after they're finished. I taper crimp and some of my Star Line brass is up around 8 loadings with no signs of failure so far and except for some %@*&$ cat Trail Boss loads most of the cases have had pretty good hunting loads used in them along with some Goex and some Blackhorn 209.

As to the good or bad of the dual ring carbide dies if they work for you that's great I've never been able to justify the expense and I like the Redding products that i have, but (and it's likely the olde phart in me) I tend to approach most if not all claims of superior ammo making if you just use this or that new dohicky. Superior ammo making is in your hands and you attention to detail.

Make smoke,

[bamboozler]

Keep this thought in mind: case wall thickness is not equal around or top to bottom.

When full length resized in a single ring carbide die you get a case that looks like a banana.

With non-carbide die this is not so.

With dual-carbide die you get a banana that is sized off-center at the neck.

All of this is visible depending on brass quality and most definitely measurable.

I only size with with non-carbide dies and have done so for years, my carbides just collect dust.

The dual-carbides are junk even after Redding replaced them with new saying we don't see a problem. They are right in the fact the die is in spec, but the cases are not.

Old school die ammo looks better, not like an hourglass and is more accurate.

[Ohio357MagFan]

Bamboozler,

I got an update to this, I didn't want to spent the crazy high price for the redding dual ring carbide dies so I got old school sizer/decap dies in both 44 magnum and 357 magnum. I figured the old school steel dies would do about the same thing in regards to sizing the cases with a bit of a taper, plus there are so many thousands of people out there with the old school steel dies who will never use them again that all you need to do is put out the word you want one and a lot of people will come forward and sell you one for next to nothing, they say ahhh since I went to carbide Ill never use the steel die again. Welllll, I gotta say I like the way the steel die sizes the cases SOOOOO much better then the carbide I will NEVER go back to carbide sizer/decap unless it's a high volume of 9mm. You are dead on right, we need to let more fellow reloaders know about this! I'm almost 40, but talked to this recently to a young man about 25 who loads a lot of 44 magnum for his contender, he was telling me the super hot (over book) loads stretch the brass in his contender, I told him about getting an old school steel sizer and he wasn't even aware they existed, as far as he knew all straightwall cases were always sized with carbide sizer dies! When I started loading in the very early 90s with my dad I recall there being both steel and carbide dies at that time, but the carbide was much higher priced then the steel die, like a lot more then today so the carbide must have been a luxury item for a while.

Let me ask you, does the brass last a lot longer when sized in the steel die? I notice the cartridges fir snugger in the chambers

[bamboozler]

Bamboozler,

...
Let me ask you, does the brass last a lot longer when sized in the steel die? I notice the cartridges fir snugger in the chambers

I think so! The case is worked a lot less.

First of all Redding's dies are top of the line and about 50% of my dies are Redding, 25% RCBS, 10% Lyman & LEE and 15% Forster.

All the handgun cartridges do fit the chambers better especially the very tapered 9mm Luger.

For me case failure is most likely to occur at the mouth or at the base from bulging from max. loads stretching the base too much and the multiply resizings. To help prevent revolver cases from splitting at the mouth I trim when new or once-fired, then don't go overboard with belling and crimping.

[Archer]

I get a lot of use out of standard pressure brass. Most often I see case mouths crack on stuff that's 20 plus years old. Typically with .45 ACP the case mouths tend to crack about the time the case heads are beaten to the point of not wanting to slide under the extractor too well. 10-20+ loads is not uncommon and I figure quite often I may loose the brass before I break it.

High pressure magnum loads truncate the life of the brass somewhat but I'm still getting more loads out of magnum handgun brass than I do out of high powered rifle. If I can get 6-10 loads out of the pistol magnum brass I've not lost much in the scheme of things and it is probably time to refresh. I am pretty sure I've gotten at least that out of cases run through the Dillon SDB in .44 Mag at near maximum loads of 2400. (Technically those loads are tops for some manuals and may be a tiny bit high for some others. PLUS more than half of them were fired through a Winchester 94.)

High powered rifle brass that gets trimmed often I can generally get 5-6+ loads out of before discarding.
Most of the book data says toss them after 4 trims.
What I find happening is that the case above the head on the inside of the brass thins. I do an inspection with a bent paperclip 'scratcher' to find the interior groove as it is forming. Anything the scratcher catches on gets tossed. It usually catches on one side more than the other.
The other thing that tends to limit brass life is the case head getting banged up by the extraction and ejection process with semiautos. This is most evident with .308 in the M1A or HK91 or with .30-06 with the Garand. I haven't noticed as much with the AR style guns but I haven't reloaded the same sorts of volume for them either. I wind up tossing about 50-70% of the brass in .308 or .30-06 that goes through the autos for thinning above the case head and another 15-20% for being beaten about by extraction. You can file some of the rim down where it is bashed into the extractor groove but do you really want to risk having the rim ripped off during extraction?

I have had some short brass life with .30-30 and I've been less than impressed with the thin case mouth walls on .45-70 Winchester factory brass. 7.62x25 tends to throw the brass so far to the right that reacquiring it is a pain. I have shot some reloadable brass out of it but I've also shot a lot of steel case surplus stuff and that stuff splits half the time.

The brass gets used as hard or harder than anything else in the pressure retention system. When you are dealing with 20KPSI at the low end for something like .45 ACP up to 60KPSI for typical rifle rounds right in front of or right next to your face you DON'T want to be saving a couple more pennies using that brass that's forming thin spots. That goes double or triple if you are putting together ammo that might get pressed into self defense duty.