Ring around case head

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GasGuzzler
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Re: Ring around case head

Post by GasGuzzler »

2400 is more sensitive and has a narrower sweet spot in my experience. In a 6.5" NMBH its smaller window is still better than W296/H110 for me. W296/H110 Might be better in my Rossi but so far it has shot everything from mild to wild at my test distances to the sights so I can't tell. I have not shot paper with it nor have I chrono'd it (one session fail, new chrono arrived and it's not been used). This is rain/baseball season (kids) so I don't get to shoot.

Some of my 2400 is 5-10 years old. My W296/H110 is new. IIRC my NMBH loads are about 14 of 2400 and about 17 for W296/H110 with 162gr cast.

I've never loaded jacketed .357 or had a ring or separated or split cases....yet.
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Re: Ring around case head

Post by donhuff »

MagFan,

If you keep reducing 296, you will reach a point where it starts doing all the bad stuff. But there is no reason to do that other that to verify for yourself that "it does happen".

Not long ago, I did some loading with 300MP (a ball powder similar to 296) and there was very limited data out there for my combo. So I starter low but not really low (I thought). I believed that I was in the range that would give a good enough burn and ignition to be ok. I was wrong, and I got the loud BOOM, delayed ignition, and unburned powder. It took 2 more grains before it quit doing that. Then another 1/2 to one full grain, before it started sounding like it was burning correctly.

But like I said above, with 296 there is no reason to do that cause there is tons of data. And if wanting to down load, there are lots of powders that are better suited for lower velocities.


Did you section that brass with the ring on it to make sure that the ring was caused by the brass getting thin? I have seen lots of marks and lines on brass before, and then it turns out to be nothing BUT a mark or line.
Usually, incipient case head separation, will be around the full circumference of the case. I have had a few 360 Dan Wesson cases separate like that when loading 180 grain bullets to the max and a heavy crimp. And I think I had one 44 do it to in my 44 R92. I have read about another fellow that had a few 44s to separate in his lever gun, and he stated that it has happened only while using old brass, and long (inside the case) bullets. Not sure what the long bullet has to do with it but the 180 is the longest bullet that I shoot too. But my brass was brand new.

I too wanted to blame headspace, like you would do with a bolt action, since "pushing the shoulder back to far" is not an option with our 92s and pistol rounds. So that sent me on a mission to check the headspace on my rossis. At first I thought that my 357 had way to much space, and I thought that I had found the problem.

Then I checked my other other 3 rossis and found that they all had MORE space than the 357 did! :?

About the chamber being bigger at the rear of the hole. That is correct, I checked all of mine and noted this. I don't know if it is supposed to be that way by design, or if it just happens that way because of tool wear. If you look at a brand new chamber, you can see that the front half is usually not as slick and smooth as the rear half. When making a "straight" hole, it's the front edge of the cutter that ends up doing 99% of the cutting. Even when using a reamer. So it's natural for the front of the reamer to wear a little more than the rear does. This will tend to make the hole tapered a little.
I ran across this situation just yesterday while getting some rounds ready to take to the range to try out a new 357 I bought. Most of the rounds would feed ok, then I would get a few that did not want to chamber all the way before getting sticky, and made the lever hard to close. When checking the loads, there are some that are a little fatter where the bullet has the case bulged out. Not but a .001 or two, but thats enough when the chamber is tight and the bullets are big. I size at .3585". The loaded bullets that gave the problems probably are in thick brass. I use mixed brass like most people do in pistol rounds. I noticed that none of the offending rounds were in new starline cases, which were in my mix. I did pull a couple of the "big" bullets, then load the same piece of brass with a .357" bullet. That fixed the problem, but that's not the way I want to do it every time. I'll check the chamber this morning to see how much it necks down. Probably only a thousands or two. And I'll open it up so that everything will feed right. The rounds that were a little snug were .3795" to .380 and the spec chamber is suppose to be .3801 at the front and .3809 at the rear. Thats pretty tight and since I shoot about 99.9% cast, I could stand for it to be a little looser like the rear of the chamber is.

BTW my other 357 R92 was exactly the same way.
Don Huff

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Re: Ring around case head

Post by donhuff »

And I forgot to mention.

The lever on one of mine would hit the bottom tang, and you could squeeze it hard and make the bolt close a tiny bit more. I took it apart and compared that lever to one of the others. It was bent a little and thats what was making it contact the tang.

I put it in a vise and bent it back to where it was suppose to be, like the other one. It had plenty of clearance after that!

So look at yours close to see if it might be bent. Or just bend a little clearance in it anyway. Its not very hard to bend.
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Re: Ring around case head

Post by Archer »

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Dr ... Magnum.pdf

Check the chamber drawing. Nominal taper looks like 8 tenths of a thou along the body of the chamber (tolerances look to be +.004" -zero).
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Re: Ring around case head

Post by Ohio357MagFan »

donhuff wrote:And I forgot to mention.

The lever on one of mine would hit the bottom tang, and you could squeeze it hard and make the bolt close a tiny bit more. I took it apart and compared that lever to one of the others. It was bent a little and thats what was making it contact the tang.

I put it in a vise and bent it back to where it was suppose to be, like the other one. It had plenty of clearance after that!

So look at yours close to see if it might be bent. Or just bend a little clearance in it anyway. Its not very hard to bend.

Hi Don, nice to hear from you! Hey check out this youtube video I made that shows the amount of looseness in my Rossi 357. I honestly can't remember if it was doing this when it was new, thousands of rounds and 5 years ago......

Is yours that bad? For what it's worth, I recently shot some factory rounds with squeezing the lever hard and also some shots with relaxed grip. I measured the brass and the length was equal with both, so I don't think it makes a difference either way as far as stretching the brass. The slight bulge on the cases were also the same. The ring or bulge is very very slight and when I run my finger on the side of the case you can feel it, and it's only on one side of the case. It is gone when the loads are reduced a bit, and were talking going from 16.5 grains of 296 to 15 grains, which is still within starting load level. Also all of the 38 special power level loads have smooth sided brass. All of the brass from my .223 has the same exact bulge. I think your right, that it is due to a chamber that is slightly larger on the back. I notice it irons out when run through the sizer.

In regards to the lever being bent, what exact way is it bent?? I did take my 357 apart and wow its very complex and HARD to get back together!!!

Hey I picked up one of the CVA single shot .44 magnums, it's a very tight locking action and was only 240 bucks! I'm about to have a gunsmith cut and recrown the barrel from 22 to 16.5 inches and going to use a red dot sight. Figure it will make a fun ultra compact 5 lb fun lil plinker, heck it's so inexpensive why not
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Re: Ring around case head

Post by donhuff »

I not at home now so I can't say for sure if mine has that much play in it, but I highly suspect that they do. Leverguns are not known for having a really tight lockup, as that would be very hard to do what with all the moving parts that they have. Plus, if it was tight, it would also probably be hard to cycle smoothly.

I wouldn't worry much about it, and just load down to a level where it does not ruin your cases. Thats what I'm doing now with my 360. I know I was loading it to hot and that's what caused my brass failures. So now that I know where the limit is, I just load below it.

My lever was bent up so that it made contact with the tang too soon. I bent it down away from the receiver just a little so that it would not contact. Mine was staying UP because the lever detent was holding it up tight against the receiver bottom. Yours will not do like that because it if falling back down away from the receiver.

I bet that CVA is gonna kick! But it should be easy to carry being that light.
Don Huff

to bad those that know it all, cant do it all!
16" SS 92 357
20" BL 92 357
20" SS 92 44
20" BL 92 44
20" Bl 92 45C
20" Bl 92 454
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Re: Ring around case head

Post by Ohio357MagFan »

Don,

I have come to the conclusion that I'm just not going to worry about it and keep shooting my R92 but only with lighter loads from now on. Not all powder puff loads, I'm just talking magnum loads at the starting loads in the manuals. I think the R92 action is Ruger level strong and fully capable of handling the hottest 357 mag loads as far as a one rep max load catastrophic failure, but there is something about the firearm design that is very hard on brass.

About the 44 mag single shot, it's a shame that Rossi and Handi Rifles discontinued all their single shots, but I gotta say the CVA is a very quality gun. For only a little over $200 I just had to get one, and I've been wanting to turn one into what a lot of people call a "shorty", a single shot rifle with barrel cut to 16.5 inches. That's the smallest lightest rifle you can possibly get. I know it will kick hard with magnums, but I want it mostly for something the lady and youth to enjoy. I get together with a group of uncles and cousins a couple times of month, we spend half a day shooting and share each others guns. We have a lot of children and ladies in the bunch and I plan on making a bunch of 44 mag loads with a brick of Penn bullets 185 DEWC full wadcutter bullets I just got. They are polymer coated and they take up the same amount of powder space as a 240 SWC. I figure loaded with a light load of unique that the whole family will get a lot of enjoyment with that combo and the ultra light 16 inch barrel 44. Just all short range family fun shooting at water ballons and bowling pins and what not
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