Ring around case head

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Idaho Spud
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Re: Ring around case head

Post by Idaho Spud »

Straight wall brass doesn't normally "stretch", at least not in the classic sense of brass flowing toward the shoulder/neck area as it might in bottle neck ammo due to high pressure. This looks more like a bulge caused by a chamber a bit larger at the breech end, You said in the past you had to "iron out" bulges in the sizer die. The brass in this ammo may have been softer, too. The chambers in your Smith didn't have this issue. Just a guess.


edit: another thought...and maybe this was what you guys were thinking: a slightly unsupported case situation from the action "springing" a bit? Seems unlikely in one firing, unless the loads were pretty hot. Primers don't indicate that, though. Just thinking....
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Ohio357MagFan
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Re: Ring around case head

Post by Ohio357MagFan »

Idaho, I'm really wondering about how much the headspace is affected by how hard you squeeze the lever when firing. Here I made a short youtube video of me showing what I'm talking about. It's obvious to me that when you fire the rifle while squeezing the lever the headspace is a lot less then if you had a relaxed grip. I didn't take any measurements but squeezing the lever pushes the locking lugs up just a tad and moves the bolt forward enough that you can see it. Here check this out...
Idaho Spud
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Re: Ring around case head

Post by Idaho Spud »

Just curious. Did you have a round (or an empty) chambered when you made the video? I'll check mine in a while. One way to eliminate the out -of- spec chamber theory is to have a chamber cast done. Might put your mind at ease about that possibility.

I just chrono'd some rounds and am shooting with a cast on my "lever hand", IOW NOT squeezing hard, and didn't notice anything visually. Unfortunately, never thought to mike them, too late, now they're in the clean pile. Let's face it, strong as these guns are, they still lock up at the rear and aren't as strong as say a Rem 700 BA. There's bound to be some "give". They didn't have the same probs with low pressure rounds like 32-20, 25-20, back in the day.

edit: I tried what you did in your video, with a round chambered and with an empty chamber and my gun didn't exhibit the same thing yours does. But then, my gun is brand new. I'm no gunsmith, but possibly after many rounds over the years, your locking blocks have set back in their mortises a bit. Just an educated guess, though, and it's free.
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Ohio357MagFan
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Re: Ring around case head

Post by Ohio357MagFan »

Idaho,

When I shot the video, there was no cartridge or case in the rifle, but I have tried it both ways. I think you are right about the lugs loosening up!! I have been studying and researching the model 92 and I believe the lugs going up and getting loose like mine (four years of shooting thousands of magnum loads) has a LOT more to do with the headspace then having the barrel turned (I always see people talking about turning the barrel to change headspace but never about the lugs loosening or tightening). The more the lugs push up, the more it pushes the bolt forward to the point it hits the back of the barrel. I'm going to take the rifle apart and try to tighten all that up, I'll keep you posted.

Yeah the lugs do lock at the rear but from what I understand the 92 action is still pretty strong, stronger then the marlins. Plus Ruger makes a 357/44 mag compact carbine the same size and weight as a .22 and it's a bolt action but that also locks at the rear.
Idaho Spud
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Re: Ring around case head

Post by Idaho Spud »

I have an old Win 94 with a bit of headspace and the primers from a case will ever so slightly back out after firing. That's pretty much the classic sign of headspace from these springier actions. Yours doesn't seem to show that sign, though. Anyway, hope you find your answer. I believe a trip to a guy with a lathe maybe in order as your barrel might need to be set back a thread or so. Not sure of any remedy from the breech-block end, maybe new lugs (thicker)? Even then, you might need some barrel work at the breech end to get headspace correct. Maybe a new gun? I just got a dandy. Good luck.
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Ohio357MagFan
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Re: Ring around case head

Post by Ohio357MagFan »

Idaho,

Well I took my 357 R92 all apart, wow it's pretty complicated and VERY hard to get put together. It's wayyy more complex then taking apart a bolt action. Well the bad news is that there is no way to retune or tighten the loose bolt, it's just the way all the parts come together, and I tried to get it so the locking lugs were pushed higher but it's impossible. Bummer. Do you think that Ruger model 77 in 357 magnum rifle would have the same issues with the springyness stretching brass? It's a model 77 bolt action BUT the version in 357 and 44 mag locks at the rear of the bolt
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Re: Ring around case head

Post by Ohio3Wheels »

Rear locking rifle have that reputation, but I've never heard of it being a problem with the Rugers. We have a Rem 788 in 22/250 that anything over about a 3/4 load will cause some case stretch. Made it a pain to load for until I figured out. Careful adjustment of the FL die and don't try to squeeze the last 100 fps out of it and it's happy.

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Ohio357MagFan
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Re: Ring around case head

Post by Ohio357MagFan »

Ohio,

I keep scratching my head about this, I have been looking close at the 1892 design and the way it functions and I'm wondering now much the extractor effects the bolt and headspace. The extractor sticks out from the bolt and it has a pretty stout spring, it takes a good amount of force to push it in. I'm wondering if my bolt is pushing back a tad when its locked because the extractor is pushing too hard back, you think?
Ohio3Wheels
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Re: Ring around case head

Post by Ohio3Wheels »

I don't know. How far does it sling the empties? I hear tails of some of the 357's launching cases into low earth orbit. All I have to compare to is my 45 Colt that flicks the cases straight up sometimes they hit the top of my head, but they don't land that far away until they bounce on the concrete floors at the ranges.

Don't confuse the extractor and the ejector. The extractor is usually some kind of hook arrangement that pulls the case out of the chamber, the ejector, spring loaded in the case of the 92, then flings it off the bolt face as the cycle continues.

It mat be that when you squeeze hard on the lever after closing the action that you are further compressing the ejector spring, but as a guess if the ejector is pushing back enough to cause excess head space the it's worn locking bars and/or bolt that are allowing that to happen. It would be nice to have the specs on both the bolt and bars so we could determine wear on our guns. Wear on the receiver would also play some role in this scenario also.

Food for thought
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Re: Ring around case head

Post by Archer »

The extractor is top dead center on the bolt and is a hook on that's pinned in place several inches from the bolt face.

The ejector is at the 6-7 oclock position of the bolt as viewed from the back and is spring loaded with a coil spring such that as the bolt closes the ejector retracts even with the bolt face and/or cartridge head.
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