NOE 360-180 cast in 357 brass

[Ranch Dog]

Thanks for the bullet clarification guys and the specifics Don. I think I have a good grip on the numbers and QuickLoad seems to be generating valid data. What it doesn't do a good job of is predicting the velocity stagnation that occurs as a cartridge combination reaches its max, I think we all have seen it just as you are seeing it at 19.0-grains, possibly 18.5-grains, and above. Of course, my pressure trace gear has taught me that though velocity has stagnated, pressure hasn't.

Looking at these should reinforce your thinking of 18.5 as a max, that is a very valid thought. You didn't include the SD with the 19.0 & 19.5 but it would be interesting to see. Usually, it becomes larger and the ES might reach the calculated velocity but he average doesn't. Oh, being it is winter I used 40° as ambient temperature. Up or down will effect the velocity a bit but not the pressure.

18.0..........1855fps 17sd
QL 18.0-grains - 1861 FPS - 34.3 KPSI

18.5..........1909 sd 34 No flat primers and extraction is normal. I call this one good.
QL 18.5-grains - 1910 FPS - 37.7 KPSI

19.0..........1933 primers a little flat on 2 rounds
QL 19.0-grains - 1958 FPS - 41.6 KPSI

19.5..........1955fps Primers getting flat and sticky extraction To HOT.
QL 19.5-grains - 2006 FPS - 45.9 KPSI

BTW, when is Al gonna get your mold designs in stock? I think your 175 grain would actually work better for this and for accuracy since it is shorter. By the time I put a gas check on it and got it painted, I bet it would weigh right at 180 grs.

I'm not sure. His inventory seems all over the map. Honestly I have a very hard time looking through his designs, it is very tough to find a particular mold. They need to be divided up better and his site is really in need of a product search.

I suspect all of my designs, from Lee or NOE, are long past consideration. I sent a email to Titan Reloading, a large Lee dealer, offering to give him all my designs and drawings if he was interested in adding them to his inventory but they never bothered to respond.

[donhuff]

That looks a lot better RD. That 77000 number scared the begezzers out of me, even though I knew it could not have been that high. Reason I know that is I can still count to TEN!

The sd went as follows
17.5.......11.0
18.0.......17 sd
18.5.......34
19.0.......21.7
19.5.......25.1

I did not have enough of the 18.0 load loaded, to try for accuracy, only loaded 5 of most of the loads. My rational was that if the max load shot all over the place, there would not be much need to try anything close to it either.

But in light of how well the 18.5 grain load grouped on a target, now I have to try the 18.0 one for accuracy too. It's very possible that it will do just as well and maybe better since the sd was the best of the bunch for this case,bullet,powder combination at 17.5 grains, and the velocity was only around 50 fps slower. I would not mind giving up that 50 fps, for improved accuracy, even though I am a velocity junky.
I would much rather talk about my HITS, than talk about how fast the bullet was going......when I missed!

I totally agree with you on the NOE web site problems. It is really difficult to look up a certain mold, because of scrolling through all the molds for that size. And those damn itty bitty drawings leave me guessing what the dimensions are. More like the Accurate mold site would be nice. Much easier to look something up and to compare two or three to each other.

But I have to give Al a big thumbs up because he called me today(Sunday!) to find out what exactly I wanted to order. I got so flustered the other day trying to figure out what I did wrong and then trying to get the right thing ordered, that I ordered a mold that was not in stock I screwed up the order again!
So He did not have a 5 hole 360-180RF aluminum, nor a 4 hole either. But he did have a 4 hole brass mold. I have never tried a brass one so I figured I'd give it a try. He made a deal with me that I do not think I should repeat, to try and settle things between us, even though it was all MY dumb azz mistakes!!! I tell you what, it's gonna be hard for me to buy a mold from anyone else, cause I feel like I owe him now! When somebody treats you that good, ya better not forget it.

[donhuff]

The bullet Don is shooting is a BRP design that was run on a group buy at NOE a while back. Single lube groove and dual crimp grooves.
Edit for pics from NOE

That's it okie,

Now if I could only make the crimp grooves bigger and deeper. And do away with that "silly" grease groove, and move the GC shank forward since the solid grease groove made it heavier and ................

[cdmajesty]

The bullet Don is shooting is a BRP design that was run on a group buy at NOE a while back. Single lube groove and dual crimp grooves.
Edit for pics from NOE

That's it okie,

Now if I could only make the crimp grooves bigger and deeper. And do away with that "silly" grease groove, and move the GC shank forward since the solid grease groove made it heavier and ................

Oops! Sorry for my mixup. I am surprised. I really thought the NOE bullet was the same as the MP/Glen Larson version. Nevermind my post.

[donhuff]

I guess this is as good a place to put this as more folks should look at the 357 brass thread than the 360 one.

I got to wondering about the separated brass I had. And I knew the sticky expander ball idea was a stretch. So I decided to look a little deeper into what.s going on.

It's because of some of my loads being over max like I really figured it was all along. Some of the brass showed more expansion right before the web/head area than others did. I measured several that looked the biggest and sure nuff, they were out there at .382" to fill the chamber at the mouth, and did not spring back to a smaller diameter like the weaker loads did. Right below this swell on the actual head area they averaged about .377-.3775", or better put one to one and a half thousands bigger than the head on new brass.
This swelling stretched the brass thin right above the web area and made a tiny hour glass looking spot in it. One more firing with a pretty hot load and it pulls itself into and separates.

If the brass was .379 like saami specs it. it would only have to swell .003" to fill the .001 over chamber, and the brass would more than likely come out of it ok. Not to say that any of these number means that the gun nor brass are out of spec, not at all. They have to have some tolerance in them or nothing would ever fit as everything would be to tight. And when using a cast bullet .002" over sized to get a good bore seal, the portion of the case with the bullet buldgeing it out is the fattest part of the whole thing.

This is a common thing with hot loads in bottle neck cases because the brass tends to flow forward and stretch it in this area. Odd for me to see it in a straight wall case though, and I do not understand why it's happening.
Am I crimping to hard and the brass is stretching before the case swells to let the crimp go? Is the brass gas check sticking (like the expander button did) and this is pulling the brass thin before letting the bullet go? Remember I don't usually use gas checks so I'm normally loading a plain lead bullet in max loads, and have never seen this happen.


Any way, I have a picture here of some cutaway brass to show the "thin spot". It may be hard to see but look at the inner wall, just above the radius where the wall meets the floor. On the two dirty ones on the right.
And just for comparisons sake. I sectioned a 38 special on the left then a 357, and the three long ones are 360s. Notice the head thickness of the three, between the floor on the inside, and the very bottom of the cartridge. See how the 38 and 357 look the same, they are and measure .160" thick. But those DW cases are THICKER at .190".

[Okie44]

The bullet Don is shooting is a BRP design that was run on a group buy at NOE a while back. Single lube groove and dual crimp grooves.
Edit for pics from NOE

That's it okie,

Now if I could only make the crimp grooves bigger and deeper. And do away with that "silly" grease groove, and move the GC shank forward since the solid grease groove made it heavier and ................

Mountain Molds has a program where you can design your own mold. Go play with the design program!


http://www.mountainmolds.com/

[donhuff]

cd,

When Al talked to me today he called it a BRP design too.

[donhuff]

Yes I have seen that and accurate will let you do similar.

I would really hate to do all that then get the mold, pour up some bullets, paint em and check them, load them......then find out they shoot like crap!

That would only confirm my wife's belief that, I don't know all that I think I know. Then she would be right again,....and I get tired of her being right so much.

[GasGuzzler]

Less crimp would help both the issues you mentioned, Don....it seems.

So it really was the REAL Santa Claus that brought me this mold, as RD suggested.

[donhuff]

http://www.mountainmolds.com/


okie,

thanks for that link, I thought I had seen that before but I had not.I have been wanting something like this.