Headspace Issue

Rossi's latest and past big game rifle based on the 336 frame!
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Jacko
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Headspace Issue

Post by Jacko »

G/Day Folks, just back form a rare Range Session with my 45.70 Rio Grande. Today's visit was to try some starting loads with a new Cast Bullets Engineering 458400 Mould. CBE Moulds are first rate, I bought a single Cavity Brass Mould and am happy with the Projectiles it drops. The Projectile I bought is on the first page of their catalogue

http://www.castbulletengineering.com/page009.html

The not so happy news is that 2 1/2 years ago when I bought this Rifle I sent it back to the Distributer to fix a light hammer strike issue. They fixed that and reported back to me they fixed an excessive head spacing issue also. Beauty I thought !

Trouble with me is I don't get to the Range much so it can take me a while to get a new Rifle sorted and reliable to Hunt with

Since then I have had issue's with the Trigger Safety Block not fuly depressing and thus cant drop the Hammer. I looked long and hard at how I was assembling my Ammunition, trimmed using a Lee Case Trimmer, loading to different OAL, made sure the Proj was not jamming in the Lands etc.

Wednesday Night I dug out my Lyman Lathe type Trimmer and trimmed some Cases down to 2.025 as per Ranchdogs Loads, double checked the projectiles where not jammed in the lands and thought I was good to go

Got to the Range today and 17 of 20 Rounds went Bang, 3 or 4 of them required a good slam of the Lever before they Fired and with 3 the Trigger Safety Block would not depress so no Bang.

So on the way home I took the Rifle to a very good Gunsmith I have used for Custom Work before and had him look at it. In his opinion Head Space is too Tight ! So the distributor fixed excessive Head Space too well for me :lol:

Seeing that the Distributor is over 1400 KM away, the Rifles well out of Warrantee I wont even bother with the distributor. I look forward to finally getting this Rifle sorted out as I have not Hunted with it yet because it has proven unreliable. Biggest issue is that I get to the Rifle Range so rarely it takes me a while to work through issues and develop loads

Other than this the Rifle shoots like stink when it goes Bang. The CBE Projectiles shot quite well considering I did not do any real load development, that big Metplat should make them a great Game Bullet

regards Jacko
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Re: Headspace Issue

Post by akuser47 »

Sorry to hear that, keep us posted to what your smithy finds and does to get her going good for you. +corn
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Re: Headspace Issue

Post by Ranch Dog »

If the local gunsmith couldn't correct the issues it might be time to give the rifle the "boot"!
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Re: Headspace Issue

Post by donhuff »

Jacko,

That doesn't sound just right to me. Headspace on a rimmed cartridge is determined by the distance between the bolt face and the rear end on the barrel. It is not easily altered without screwing the barrel in, or trimming some off the back where the bolt meet it.

I would suspect that your bullets are too long maybe at the shoulder area, or the bore riding section is too large and slightly touching. The throat in the rio's is small and tight per saami specs. The next thing I would suspect is that the bullet is to big in diameter and when seated in the case, the diameter is too large to fit in the chamber without resistance. This will show up as some working and some not working like yours is doing. The reason is that some brass is a little thicker than others by just a hair, and maybe only on one side. My 357 did this as I size my bullets at .359" and the chamber was too tight for "some" of the loaded rounds. If jacketed bullets work ok in your rifle, I would suspect one of these problems.

To check for too big diameter, I color the area of the case that is swollen up by the bullet, with a sharpie pen and chamber the round. If it comes out with a lot of the ink gone, then there's your problem. The fix would be to size down your bullets a thousands or two, IF your bore will allow it.

I would try all of my loaded rounds in the chamber before heading to the range, to save you from going all that way for nothing.Especially until you get it sorted out. It's called the "clink/clunk" test when used on auto pistols. Drop them into the chamber, and they should fall all the way down until the rim stops them. They actually say that the 45-70 shoots cast bullets better, if the bullet is just touching the lands. I'll take reliable functioning over a little accuracy loss any day, especially on a short range hunting rifle.
Don Huff

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Re: Headspace Issue

Post by Tuco Ramirez »

This is why I have a LE Wilson case gage for every caliber I reload. It has saved my bacon more times than I can count. Just because you run a case through the resizing die does not mean it will fit the chamber. With a shoulder case sometimes the shoulder does not get bumped back enough. I have had quite a few 5.56 once fired cases that have a bulge at the base. Anyone who has ever tried to reload brass that was fired in a Glock know what I am talking about...... :lol: LE is one of many out there, they should all do the job. I just like LE.

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Re: Headspace Issue

Post by akuser47 »

Tuco Ramirez wrote:This is why I have a LE Wilson case gage for every caliber I reload. It has saved my bacon more times than I can count. Just because you run a case through the resizing die does not mean it will fit the chamber. With a shoulder case sometimes the shoulder does not get bumped back enough. I have had quite a few 5.56 once fired cases that have a bulge at the base. Anyone who has ever tried to reload brass that was fired in a Glock know what I am talking about...... :lol: LE is one of many out there, they should all do the job. I just like LE.

yep the unsupported glock chamber sure makes brass look off my g26 does a good job of this. I may replace barrel someday soon to eleminate this. OP keep us posted to your findings
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Re: Headspace Issue

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I picked my Rio Grande up today, seems the Gunsmith fixed it 2 weeks ago and a member of my Family did not pass the message on to me. When I spoke to the Gunsmith because it was repaired 2 weeks ago and he had done a lot of work on Marlin and Rossi Levers in the last month could not quite remember exactly what he had found with my Rifle but I noted $ $ reflected in his Eyes.

He said the Lever was not closing completely, giving the impression of a Headspace issue. Whatever he did the Lever is noticeably softer to close and it Cycles smoother than it was and I did not think it could Cycle smoother. I asked if it was Burrs on the Trigger Safety Block but he said no, was something else and he apologised again ! It did not cost me a great deal but it is money I may have been able to save if I had of taken a Leap of Faith and did the Job myself

What ever the issue was the distributor should have identified and repaired the Rifle in the first place when I sent it away for the Warrantee Claim

regards Jacko
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Re: Headspace Issue

Post by Tuco Ramirez »

Jacko;

Thank you so much for following up on your original post!!!. This is one of the biggest problems I see on most forums. Folks come forward when the problem exist but very rarely take the time to follow up to help others having the same problem. You sit there scratching your after reading through a thread and get to the end and the fix is missing...... :evil:

Having a RG in 45-70 that has experienced failure to fire issues since the day I bought it I am slowing educating myself on possible causes. Let me preface this that I am not a gunsmith nor do I claim to be. For anyone attempting to work on this weapon you do so at your own risk.
336 Headspace1.jpg
The are (2) contact points that can effect headspace. The headspace we are discussing here is the distance between the bolt face and the rim of the cartridge as shown in letter (A). The other headspace is in the chamber letter (D) but that is a whole other discussion.... :lol:

I suspect your gunsmith made what I would refer to as a fine headspace adjustment in one of (2) places. Either letter (B) where the front leading edge of the lever rides in the slot on the bottom of the bolt. Or the other contact point is shown in letter (C). This is where the locking bolt engages into the slot on the bottom of the rear section of the bolt. In my opinion this is the strongest point not on the leading edge of the lever. As the lever is closed it pushes the bolt lock (C) upward into the bolt slot. Due to the fact it is tapered is pushes the bolt forward until the lever is fully closed. If the factory milled the face of the bolt lock to much you can have excessive headspace by allowing the bolt to go backwards thus creating excessive headspace and the firing pin cannot engage the primer firmly. If they did not mill it enough it pushes the bolt to far forward and binds up with the rim of the case.

If they said they made a headspace adjustment I would suspect they modified one of those (2) contact points. For someone who is experiencing failure to fire issues and suspect excessive headspace there are ways to check this. I used the redneck Go/No Go gages. When you resize a case save the spent primer. By hand place it back in the case just enough to hold it there. Place the case back in the chamber and close the lever than eject it. The spent primer should not be sticking out more than .005 from the case rim. My research has found the acceptable industry standard at no more than .005. The reason listed for allowing this slight distance between the bolt face and case rim is not all brands of brass have the exact thickness case rims. If you get one with a thicker case rim it could bind up. When I tested mine the spent primer was flush with the back of the case and the lever engaged smoothly so I am happy with it.

If there is more than .005 you stand the risk of case head separation due to excessive headspace. When the round is fired the case is pushed back into the face of the bolt.

Headspace can also be adjusted by turning the barrel in or out. We just recently had a guy post pics where his sights were off center to the right I believe. I would bet a steak dinner the QC guys had a headspace issue with the rifle and decided to make the adjustment at the barrel after the sight dove tails were already milled in thus putting the sights off center.

If headspace is not the problem with failure to fire issues that you move on to bolt issues or hammer main spring strength. I have addressed all issues with my bolt so my focus is now on a weak hammer main spring. I will let everyone know how that works out in a different thread...... :D
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Re: Headspace Issue

Post by Ranch Dog »

Great information Tuco, thanks!
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Re: Headspace Issue

Post by Tuco Ramirez »

Thanks RD....We are going to crack this nut yet!! :lol:
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